The Lantern. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
“It Was Important for Both of us to Come Back Home”: In Сonversation with Neri&Hu
由专筑网小R编译
Lyndon Neri1965年出生于菲律宾，毕业于哈佛大学，Rossana Hu1968年出生于中国台湾，毕业于普林斯顿大学，他们相识于加州大学伯克利分校。他们在普林斯顿Michael Graves & Associates 事务所就职了10年之久，2004年，他们在上海成立了如恩设计研究室(Neri&Hu)，该工作室目前有超过100位国际建筑师与设计师在各司其职，有着许多知名作品，其中包括上海南外滩水舍、墙垣 – 青普扬州瘦西湖文化行馆，以及苏州礼堂。这两位建筑师除了经营着建筑设计工作室之外，还经营着零售商店设计工作室，同时担任着家具品牌Stellar Works的设计总监。以下是在其上海办公室里的采访。
Lyndon Neri (b. 1965, Philippines) graduated from Harvard and Rossana Hu (b. 1968, Taiwan) from Princeton; they met while pursuing their undergraduate degrees at the University of California at Berkeley. Before establishing Neri&Hu in 2004 in Shanghai, a prolific, multidisciplinary practice with over 100 international architects and designers, the husband-and-wife partners worked for a decade at Michael Graves & Associates in Princeton. Among their most recognized works are The Waterhouse at South Bund in Shanghai, The Walled – Tsingpu Yangzhou Retreat, and Suzhou Chapel. Apart from running an architectural practice and design studio the partners lead a retail store Design Republic and serve as creative directors of a furniture brand Stellar Works. The following is an excerpt from our candid conversation at their Shanghai office.
The Lantern. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
Vladimir Belogolovsky（下文称为VB）：你并没有在中国学习过建筑，那么这是否会给你带来不同的设计视角？
Lyndon Neri（下文称为LN）：是的，这会让我们有一些与主流不同的观念。
VB：在国内，几乎所有领先的独立建筑师都是中国人，他们毕业于清华、同济等顶尖学府，然后他们会在美国进行接下来的教育，这种趋势一般不会有例外，是吗？
Rossana Hu（下文称为RH）：我们有着不同的开端，我们对于事情的看法也不太相同，我们了解到美国建筑的内涵，当然这和文化背景也有关系。
LN：实际上我们比较喜欢欧洲建筑师，也许是因为我们也有类似的焦虑感受，比如我们该如何找项目？欧洲人无法依赖于身份来找项目。在欧洲，许多人并非来自瑞士、葡萄牙、西班牙，他们仍然希望自己能够成为优秀的建筑师，我们认为自己是中国建筑师，但是别人会认为我们有着美国建筑学习的背景，因此是美国建筑师，但是我们并不确定事实是不是这样。
Vladimir Belogolovsky: You never studied architecture in China. Does this give you a different perspective from many leading contemporary architects here?
Lyndon Neri: For sure this makes us different from the mainstream.
VB: All leading independent, avant-garde architects here in China are Chinese-born, mainly educated at the top Chinese universities – either Tsinghua in Beijing or Tongji in Shanghai. They then continue their education typically in America. There are very few exceptions from this trend, right?
Rossana Hu: Absolutely. We had a different start, and we definitely see things differently. And we also see things differently from the American architects, even though, we were trained in the same schools. This is mainly because of our cultural background and cultural interests.
LN: We actually relate more to European architects. Partially because we have a similar tension and anxieties; where are we going to get our next work from? The Europeans can’t rely on their identity to get work. Many of them are not seen as Swiss, Portuguese, or Spanish architects. They want to be seen as good architects. We identify ourselves as diasporic Chinese and would often be seen as American architects in China, but I am not sure if we are truly American.
The Foreplay. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
The Foreplay. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
VB：我很惊讶你会这么讲，因为我不确定是不是有“美国建筑师”这么个定义，但是以前有好多优秀的建筑师，例如密斯、格罗皮乌斯、康、沙里宁等等，而现在则有迪勒、盖里、里伯斯金等等，他们都是第一代移民，你无法把美国人进行分类，他们都很独立，这是一种正确的趋势，但是将中国人进行分类却容易一些，你们也许在其中非常突出，是吗？
LN：某种程度来说，我同意这个说法，但是其中也只能包含一小部分美国建筑师，他们的思维非常独立，这个小群体具有全球性质，他们对于自己的项目有些挑剔，诸如So-IL、Johnston Marklee、MOS、WorkAC等事务所的想法都很广泛。美国的建筑行业有很多东西都已经标准化，所以主观意志上很难有不同。就中国建筑师而言，我不确定是否能将建筑业概括为统一，因为这个泱泱大国里，诸如刘家琨、董功这样的建筑师都有着不同的思维方式。
RH：你谈到的是职业联系，但是对我们而言，重要的是回家，尽管我们并非出生于此，但是对我而言，回到这座城市十分重要，因为我的父亲就是在这里离开，他走了，而我回来了，中间没有间隔，我们的孩子在这里长大。因此，个人的历史已经转化为我们的建筑特征，难道个人的行为不会在建筑设计中表达出来吗？
VB: I am surprised you say that because I am not sure there is such a thing as an American architect anymore. Look at so many leading architects – both in the past, such as Mies, Gropius, Neutra, Kahn, and Saarinen. To now, such as Diller, Gehry, Libeskind, Safdie, and Viñoly – they are all first-generation immigrants. You can’t group the Americans. They are very independent and individualistic, which is a healthy thing. It is very easy to group the Chinese. You are just about the only one in the leading pack here who stand out, right?
LN: I agree to a certain extent, but you are only talking about a small group of American architects that are very independent in their thinking. These small groups of architects are quite global and are extremely critical of their projects and thinking. Even the smaller practices like So-IL, Johnston Marklee, MOS, WorkAC to name a few are all quite global in their mindset. But I am not referring to them. I am talking about 95% of the architects and not the selected few. The construction industry in the US has standardized most things so it is hard to be different even if you want to. In terms of the Chinese architects, I am not sure if it is fair to generalize them as being all the same. China is a big country and someone like Liu Jiakun who practices in Chengdu deals with different issues from say someone like Zhang Ke of ZAO/standardarchitecture or Gong Dong of Vector Architects.
RH: You are talking about professional connection. But personally, it was important for both of us to come back home, even though we were not born here. It was important for me to come back to the city which my father has left. He has left and then I came back, so there was no break. And then our kids grew up here. So that personal history has translated into our architectural identity. Because isn’t personal identity always expressed in one’s architecture?
Schindler City. Image © Dirk Weiblen
Schindler City. Image © Dirk Weiblen
Schindler City. Image © Dirk Weiblen
Schindler City. Image © Dirk Weiblen
VB：实际上，在中国建筑师的作品中，我很难发现个人特征，但是现在你回到了中国，并在这里进行了15年的建筑实践，你认为自己拥有中国特征还是美国特征？你是否认为自己有着西式思维？
LN：这不仅仅是我们的想法，同时我们也是这么被告知的，我的祖母总是这样告诉我，“无论如何，你都是一位中国人。”因此身处异国他乡是，我需要维护自己的中国血统，因此我的长辈很担心我完全西化。有趣的是，我会在全世界的交流中发现一些传统的中国思维已经消失，因此保留中国血统就至关重要，举例而言，当我们的孩子去美国时，竟然努力证明自己是美国人，我当时就很不安，于是我问他们，“你为什么想要表现得像美国人？”那么，我是谁呢？（笑）
VB: I am actually having a hard time to detect personal identities in the work of Chinese architects. But now that you are back to China and have been leading a successful practice here for 15 years, do you identify yourselves more as Chinese or Americans, or more broadly as westerners?
LN: It is not just what we think, it is also about what we were told. Since as far as I can remember, my grandmother always told me, “You are Chinese, no matter what.” When you are in a foreign land you need to protect your Chinese-ness because your parents and grandparents are very afraid that you are going to lose it. Interestingly, some of the traditions that you may find in Chinese communication across the world are long gone in Mainland China. So being Chinese is very important. For example, when our kids went to America and tried to identify themselves as Americans it bothered me to the core. I would ask them, “Why are you acting so American?” So, who am I, really? [Laughs.]
5-Design Republic . Image © Pedro Pegenaute
5--Design Republic . Image © Pedro Pegenaute
5---Design Republic . Image © Pedro Pegenaute
RH：就我个人而言，我是一位中国人，我想表达的是，多一些中国特征，少一些国际性质。因为我们常常被人认为带有国际特征，而当我们在外国时，人们就会认为我们是中国人。因此，我们也不知道自己带有什么样的性质，我们希望自己没有文化标签，我们很独立。
LN：所以我们只需要做好本职工作，不用担心自己的身份，在一开始时，我们并没有那么多资源，我们也不属于某个团体，因此我们没得选，只能独立。上海南外滩水舍项目引起了 很多人的关注，国内外评论家也对其进行了评论，他们发现我们的作品背后有一套严密的逻辑，那么这是最重要的，这座建筑由上世纪30年代的日本军事建筑改造而成，我们解决了其中的许多问题，例如表达建筑的历史特征，唤醒博物馆的档案品质。其中结合了新旧观念、隐私与公开、舒适与不适的不同特点，这个项目也引发了人们对于其他项目的关注。
RH: Personally, I can tell you that I identify myself as both Chinese and Taiwanese, more Chinese. And work-wise, I would say more Chinese and less international. Because here we are often seen as international and when we work abroad, we are identified as Chinese. So, we don’t really see ourselves as either Chinese or American. We want to be seen as contemporary architects without this cultural identity label. We are very independent.
LN: So, we just focus on doing good work and we don’t worry about our identity. When we started, we did not have any network so naturally, we are not part of a group, so we have no choice but be independent. When we did our Waterhouse at South Bund here in Shanghai everyone noticed and so many, both Chinese and international critics and architects wrote about it. They realized that we have a serious pedagogy behind our work; that’s what important. We addressed so many issues in this conversion of a 1930s Japanese army building into a boutique hotel – by exposing the building’s historical layers that evoke the archival quality of a museum. There is a play with such polar notions as old and new, privacy and publicness, comfort and discomfort. This project brought attention to many of our other projects on all scales.
The Brick Wall. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
The Brick Wall. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
The Brick Wall. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
VB：Lyndon，你说过，“我们在现代建筑中是否真的有突破？这是个人们常常会迷失其中的时期，在这时候，建筑师需要寻找真实的自己。”那么你所谈论的这个时期从何时开始？从哪里开始寻找？又是什么因素给你灵感？
LN：几年之前，我们有意识地区参观了许多没去过的建筑作品，例如，我们参观了Terragni 位于Como的建筑，以及柯布西耶以及路易·康位于印度的作品，另外还有Geoffrey Bawa设计的位于斯里兰卡的作品等等。
RH：这是很丰富的经历，这些大师的作品确实比其他作品显得更加深刻。
VB: Lyndon, you said, "Have we really had breakthroughs in modern architecture? It's a period wherein people are somewhat lost, and in which we really have to be in search of ourselves, as architects." Were you talking about the current period and where do you begin this search? What inspires you?
LN: A few years ago, we started making conscious efforts to visit real masterpieces that we still haven’t been to. So, we visited Terragni’s buildings in Como, buildings by Le Corbusier and Louis Kahn in India, La Tourette in France, works by Geoffrey Bawa in Sri Lanka, the Parliament complex by Louis Kahn in Bangladesh, Lewrentz’s churches in Sweden, to name just a few.
RH: This was quite an experience and we both agree that these buildings are so much more profound than anything built since. We are talking about works by all our contemporaries.
The Sanctuary. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
The Sanctuary. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
VB：那你认为现代作品都缺少了什么呢？
LN：在早期的项目中，我们看到了意识形态、深入思考，在概念、空间、结构、材质上都有着很大的突破，因此我们想的是，现在的项目能够跟以前的项目进行对比吗？我们有进步吗？作为专业来说，我们是否有突破吗？其实，五十年来并没有，我们没有进行更多的研究。
RH：我们都在进行着各种变化。
VB: What do you think is missing?
LN: In those earlier projects we saw ideologies, deep thinking, real breakthroughs conceptually, spatially, structurally, materially. So, we were thinking – what can we compare that’s being built now to that? How far did we progress? Have we done any real breakthroughs as a profession? Nothing really happened in fifty years! We haven’t done anything new!
RH: All of us are just doing variations.
The Black Box. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
VB：那你怎么看蓬皮杜艺术中心？毕尔巴鄂古根海姆博物馆？西雅图公共图书馆？亦或是维特拉消防站？
LN：你说的这些毕竟是少数。
VB：那么接下来呢？你有研究内容，也有许多资源，你是怎么想的呢？
RH：我们也在问自己这个问题。
LN：我们不确定我们是否有这个能力，诸如政府或是私营企业等客户，他们都有自己所需要的东西，他们也担心我们的作品超出了他们所需要的范畴，我们花了很长时间才说服了他们。
VB: What about Center Pompidou? Bilbao? Seattle Public Library, or Vitra Fire Station?
LN: But you are talking about a limited few.
VB: So, what’s next? You have a research component, great resources. What holds you?
RH: We are asking this question ourselves.
LN: I am not sure if this is within our power. I think clients, be it the government or the private sectors, have all the information they need but precisely because of this they are scared to go outside of what is accepted. We spend a lot of time persuading our clients.
@ Neri&Hu. ImageThe Future Ruin
@ Neri&Hu. ImageThe Future Ruin
@ Neri&Hu. ImageThe Future Ruin
VB：你说过，“我们讨厌纯粹装饰的项目。”那么你们喜欢什么项目呢？
LN：我们近期在某个项目中挣扎着，因为它们已经有些过于装饰性了，但是这是客户的需求，我们仍然希望做出改变，Pierre Chareau在巴黎设计的Maison de Verre就是我们的目标，它是建筑？还是室内设计？亦或是是家具设计呢？
VB：在过去的10年里，中国是否有让你欣赏的项目呢？无关乎建筑师的国籍。
RH：如果必须要选择的话，我会选择王澍2008年的作品宁波历史博物馆，这座建筑很打动人，除了建筑，我还喜欢中国苏州的古典园林。那些园林里的诗意让人感到惬意，我喜欢的某些场所并没有名字，我们也不知道是设计师是谁。
LN：个人而言，我比较喜欢王澍的作品。
VB: You said, “We absolutely hate projects that are purely decorative.” What kind of projects do you like?
LN: I think lately we are struggling with some of the projects because that’s what they have become – decorative. Unfortunately, that’s driven by some of our clients. But we try to design our projects holistically. One project that’s exemplary for us is Maison de Verre in Paris by Pierre Chareau. Is it architecture, interior design, furniture design?
VB: Is there a particular project built here in China over the last decade or so that you admire most, either by Chinese or foreign architects?
RH: If I must pick one such project it would be Wang Shu’s Ningbo Historic Museum built in 2008. There are moments about that building that are quite moving. And apart from architecture, what really moves me are the Chinese ancient gardens, particularly in Suzhou. The moments that the poetry of those gardens can offer are magical. I also love the fact that these places are anonymous; we don’t know who built them by name.
LN: Personally, I like many of Wang Shu’s explorations in The China Academy of Art in Xiangshan near Hangzhou.
Split House. Image © Pedro Pegenaute
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