Collage. Image Cortesía de Tatiana Bilbao ESTUDIO

“生活每分每秒都在变化，但建筑从未改变”： 与塔蒂亚娜-毕尔巴鄂对话
"Life Changes Every Second, But Architecture Never Changes": In Conversation with Tatiana Bilbao

由专筑网王沛儒，小R编译

如今，我们经常能听到不同的声音在讨论当代建筑的各种问题，这些话题不胜枚举，从可持续性和包容性到社会正义和土地使用危机。乍一看，这些概念没有一个可以横向共存的共同点。然而，如果我们回过头来看，就会发现除了形式上的建筑概念，建筑的真正目的可能在于生活在其中的人。

因此，许多人会认为生活比建筑更重要，这可能会引发一场广泛的辩论。可以肯定的是，这些更新建筑工具和语言的声音逐步出现，也在被证实。他们更倾向把建筑环境转化为一个空间，为所有人创造更加公平、美好的未来。而塔蒂亚娜-毕尔巴鄂（Tatiana Bilbao）也因此而发声，她以过程为中心的方法得到了认可，认为生活和人与人之间的互动在定义居住环境方面发挥着至关重要的作用。

These days, it is common to hear multiple voices addressing the diverse issues of contemporary architecture. The topics are numerous, ranging from sustainability and inclusion to social justice and the crisis in land use. At first glance, there is no common ground where all these concepts can coexist transversally. However, if we look back, we can see that beyond the formal architectural concepts, the true purpose of architecture (probably) lies in the people and the lives that develop within it.
Thus, many would argue that life is likely more important than architecture, which could open up a broad debate. What is certain is that currently, narratives and voices are emerging and consolidating, aimed at renewing architectural tools and languages. This transformation seeks to turn the built environment into a space that promotes a more equitable and optimistic future for all. One of these voices is that of Tatiana Bilbao, recognized for her process-centered approach where life and human interactions play a crucial role in defining habitats.


Conferencia inaugural Inflexiones 2024. Image Cortesía de Tecnológico de Monterrey

在由建筑学院协会（Association of Collegiate Schools of Architecture，简称 ACSA）、蒙特雷理工大学建筑、艺术与设计学院（School of Architecture, Art, and Design，简称 EAAD）和墨西哥共和国建筑教育机构协会（Association of Architecture Education Institutions of the Mexican Republic，简称 ASINEA）共同举办的 “2024 年的变化”（Inflections 2024）活动中，塔蒂亚娜-毕尔巴鄂发表了开幕演讲。我们对她进行了采访，探讨了身份、地域性以及住房和人际关系在建筑中的作用。

Enrique Tovar （下文成为ET）： 从中国金华的展览馆到墨西哥马萨特兰的科尔特斯海洋研究中心，在您的作品发展过程中，我们可以感受到几何和构成方面的变化。从您的第一个项目到今天，您觉得有什么变化？

塔蒂亚娜-毕尔巴鄂（下文称为TB）：一切都好像变了，但也没有什么根本性的变化。没有改变的是我对建筑的理解，改变的是我对自己找到信念的能力和信心。一开始，我试着融入这个我接触过并想要参与的世界。不知道是什么原因，我感觉我做建筑的方法都只停留在书本上，随着时间的推移，我意识到我并不认同那种做建筑的方式，慢慢地，我开始更诚实地融入自我，这一点从未改变。

In the framework of Inflections 2024, organized by the Association of Collegiate Schools of Architecture (ACSA), the School of Architecture, Art, and Design (EAAD) of the Tecnológico de Monterrey, along with the Association of Architecture Education Institutions of the Mexican Republic (ASINEA), Tatiana Bilbao presented the inaugural lecture. Furthermore, in conversation with ArchDaily, she reflected on identity, locality, and the role of housing and human relations in architecture.
Enrique Tovar (ArchDaily): In the development of your work—from the exhibition hall in Jinhua, China, to the Cortés Sea Research Center in Mazatlan, Mexico—, a transformation in geometric and compositional aspects is perceptible. What would you say has changed for you from your first project to today?
Tatiana Bilbao: Everything has changed but nothing has changed profoundly. What has not changed is my conception of what I think architecture is. What has changed is my confidence in my ability to find what I believe in. In the beginning, I was trying to fit into this world that I had been exposed to and wanted to participate in. Somehow, I was doing what I thought I had been taught to do. Over time, I realized that I didn't believe in that way of doing architecture, and, little by little, I began to integrate more honestly with who I am. That never changed.


Cortés Sea Research Center. Image © Juan Manuel McGrath


Collage - Centro de investigación del mar de Cortés. Image Cortesía de Tatiana Bilbao ESTUDIO

ET：拉丁美洲的建筑，也可以说南半球的建筑，有着深厚的传统工艺传统，与这片地区工人所使用的材料和手工技能密切相关。您是如何通过建筑技术和材料选择将身份融入您的设计过程中的？

TB：身份是与生俱来的，不能被篡夺，它是你本来就有的东西。就我而言，我的身份是在一个非常特殊的背景下确定的：我出生在墨西哥一个西班牙难民家庭中，在一个高度政治化的环境中，我并不是本地人，这就是我的身份。所以我说身份不会被篡夺，你来自哪里，你就拥有什么，而我拥有的是地方性。这也是我的家人能很好地融入这个环境的原因：他们对这里有着浓厚的兴趣，对社区有深刻的理解。

身份与生俱来，不可篡夺；它永远属于你。塔蒂亚娜-毕尔巴鄂

ET： 如果没有墨西哥的材料和技术作为基础，您认为您的创作过程会有所不同吗？

TB：当然，因为我会受生活经历的影响，比如我的家庭，我们是内战的难民移民。因此，我认为在某种程度上，这其中蕴含着对新国家的欢迎、适应性和复原力的尊重。这也是墨西哥文化的一部分，我们可以利用现有的以及我们能获取的重塑自己。我们不仅能重塑自我，还能利用本地的资源发明、创造、拆除和建设整个国家。国家赋予了我一种非常不同的能力，利用所拥有的资源发挥创造力的能力，这种能力在其他资源更为丰富的国家是不可能有的。

ET: Architecture in Latin America, and more broadly in the Global South, has deep legacies of traditional processes strongly linked to the materials and manual skills of the region's workers. How do you integrate identity into your processes through construction techniques and material selection?
TB: Identity is inherent and cannot be usurped; it is something you possess. In my case, my identity is framed within a very specific context: that of a family of Spanish refugees in Mexico City, amidst a highly political environment where I do not originate from a native people. That is my identity. That is why I mention that identity is not usurped, you have it where you come from. What I think I do have embedded is the locality. This is why my family integrated so well into this context: due to a profound interest and concern for others, a capacity for understanding, and a deep appreciation for community.

Identity is inherent and cannot be usurped; it is something you possess. -Tatiana Bilbao

ET: Do you think your process would be different if you hadn't been grounded in Mexican materials and techniques?
TB: Yes, because I would be influenced by what I would have lived through. One thing you might notice when considering my family is that we are refugees from the civil war and immigrants. So I think something that's embedded in that is, in a way, respect for welcoming, adaptability, and resilience in a new country. I think this is also part of Mexico's culture. We have this capacity to reinvent ourselves with what exists, with what there is, and with what we are given. Not only to reinvent ourselves, but to invent, to create, dismantle, and build an entire country with the resources at hand. It is a very different capacity that this country has given me, the ability to be very creative with the resources I have, something that does not exist in other contexts where there is much more abundance.


Maqueta - Centro de investigación del mar de Cortés. Image Cortesía de Tatiana Bilbao ESTUDIO

ET: 在与雅克-赫尔佐格（Jacques Herzog）的一次谈话中，您提到由软件驱动的参数化是建筑领域的常态，而您却选择继续探索其他方法。但现在，全球都在经历人工智能向超技术的过渡。您如何在设计中保持以人为本，避免让技术主宰整个过程？

TB：我坚信，人类是物理实体。而技术归根结底只是一种工具，它无法取代我们与其他人之间的物理关系。我不相信机器人能维持生命，但也许有人能做到，这些都未可知。但现在，我们仍然还需要这种物理关系，我们没有办法独立的存在。我们这些活生生的有机生命存在于这个星球上，需要这些有形的墙壁来庇护，我们不可能活在数字世界里，可能有些人认为自己生活在数字世界里，但归根结底，现在是这些围墙在保护着我们。技术不过是一种工具，就像我们迄今为止所使用的工具一样，帮助我们做想做的事情。

技术永远都只是一种工具，它无法取代我们与他人之间所拥有和需要的实际关系。

ET: In a conversation with Jacques Herzog, you mentioned that in the past, parametricism driven by software tended to be the norm, whereas you chose to continue exploring analog processes. Today we seem to be experiencing a transition to the hyper-technological at the hands of AI. How do you maintain a human focus in your designs and avoid letting technology dominate the process?
TB: I firmly believe that we are human beings and physical entities. Technology will never be more than a tool; it cannot replace the physical relationships we have and need with others. I don't believe that a robot can sustain life, and maybe life will prove otherwise; let's see if it does. For now, I remain with the need for these physical relationships. We need them and will always need them; without each other, we cannot exist. We living, organic beings exist physically on this planet, and we need these physical walls to inhabit it. We cannot live in a digital world; we may think we live there, but at the end of the day, it is these walls that sustain us. Technology will be one more tool, like the ones we have used until today, to keep doing what we do.
Technology will never be more than a tool; it cannot replace the physical relationships we have and need with others.


Collage Vivienda. Image Cortesía de Tatiana Bilbao ESTUDIO

ET： 您还谈到了住宅在人们生活中的重要性，它不仅是人们日常活动的空间，也是人们对住所的基本需求。资源充足的住房项目和预算有限的社会住房项目之间有什么共同点？

TB：它们的共同之处在于：我们都需要一个栖身之所，我的所有项目都是基于这一点，有的项目有更多的可用资源，有的项目则少一点。我想，每个人都只会使用自己生活中所必需的资源，无论是生活中还是工作中，高效利用资源都很重要。

ET: You have also discussed the importance of housing in people's lives, not just as a space for daily activities, but as a fundamental need for shelter. What common ground exists between housing projects with ample resources and social housing projects operating on limited budgets?
TB: All they have in common is exactly that: we all have a physical need for a roof over our heads to inhabit this planet. All the projects I do are based on that. There are projects with more resources available and others with less. What I like to think is that one should always—but especially in cases where people think they have everything—only use what is necessary for their life and lifestyle. Using resources efficiently has always been a prerogative in the office, in any project.


Acuña Housing Prototype. Image © Jaime Navarro


Acuña Housing Prototype. Image © Jaime Navarro

ET： 在全球范围内，由于各种天气和社会事件的影响，社会和社区问题似乎越来越多，您认为建筑如何才能在社会变革中发挥更积极的作用？

TB：建筑急需在很多方面发挥更积极的作用。首先，从物理角度说，我想大家都能意识到：以负责任的态度建造建筑，将破坏降到最低。但我认为，必须深刻理解建筑是我们在这个星球上生存的一种手段。但现在建筑似乎成为一种限制，正在建造的建筑使人们无法适应自然环境。没有人知道如何在没有人工照明、空调或暖气的情况下生活。建筑原本应该是更有弹性的，以前的住宅可以控制温度，我们应该更好地利用现有的技术，而不是通过技术调节温度，必须让人类具有更强的适应能力。很多人一生都生活在 22 摄氏度的环境中，从出生到死亡，无论环境温度如何变化，只要离开这个温度，他们就会生病。建筑业难辞其咎，必须要让人类重新适应自然环境和生态系统。

其次，人本质上是具有社会性的，我们在生活中离不开他人，而建筑却自以为是地认为，它可以在没有任何其他人和物资的情况下维持人类的生存。所有的事物都被割裂，这是建筑的另一个重大缺陷。建筑应该是错位的，他们共同支撑起社会中的个人，同时也能够使他们融为一体。

ET: Addressing social and community issues, which seem to be on the rise in the global context due to weather and social events, how do you think architecture can play a more active role in social transformation?
TB: Architecture urgently needs to play a more active role in many ways. The first—if we can call it physical—I think everyone is aware of: ensuring that the building is constructed responsibly and causes minimal destruction. But I think buildings must be deeply understood as a means to exist on this planet. Today they are becoming limits. We are constructing buildings that dis-adapt people from their natural environment. Today, no one knows how to live without artificial light, air conditioning or heating, when buildings could be more resilient and, for example, control the temperature as it was done since ancient times, but now better, with the technology we have, not through it. We must have the capacity to allow human beings to be more resilient. Today some people live at 22 degrees Celsius all their lives, from birth to death, regardless of the temperature of the fluctuating environment, and if they leave that temperature they get sick, literally. So architecture is very much to blame. It is necessary to readapt human beings to their natural environment, and to their ecosystem.
Secondly, the human being, by nature, is a social being. We do not exist without the other, and architecture pretends to think that it can sustain a human being without any other need, without the other and anyone. Because we have made everything more and more compartmentalized and I think that is another great fault of architecture. It could be very different, having the capacity to sustain the individual within their society, to be able to integrate them.


Collage. Image Cortesía de Tatiana Bilbao ESTUDIO

我认为，必须深刻理解建筑是在这个星球上生存的一种手段。但现在，它好像逐渐变成一种限制。

ET：最后，理想情况下，我们创造的建筑将比我们的存在更长久。对您来说，项目能够长期存在的关键是什么？

TB：建筑是极具确定性的，它维持着进化和突变的过程，我们每时每刻都在变化，但建筑从未改变。思考这两个实体如何共存是我们整个职业生涯的工作内容，也是我们在改建旧建筑时向自己提出的问题。但最根本的问题是：建筑和人类如何有效地共存？

I think buildings must be deeply understood as a means to exist on this planet. Today they are becoming limits.
ET: To conclude, ideally, the architecture we produce will remain much longer than we do. For you, what is the key for projects to remain relevant over time?
TB: Architecture is something extremely determined and determinant that sustains an evolutionary and mutant process, which is life. Life changes every second, but architecture never changes. Thinking about how these two entities coexist has been the work of our entire career, the question we ask ourselves when making a habitable ruin or a house without labels. The fundamental question is: How can these two conditions coexist more efficiently?