法国巴黎阿里格涂鸦博物馆｜Museum of Graffiti. Image © Aki Furudate

“One Day All the Dreamers Will Get Together to Build a Fantastic World”: In Conversation with Massimiliano and Doriana Fuksas

由专筑网李韧，王雪纯编译

意大利建筑师Massimiliano与Doriana Fuksas都在罗马出生长大，且两人都毕业于罗马La Sapienza大学，他毕业于1969年，而她毕业于1979年。在开始学习时，他是一位画家，而她最开始学的是艺术史。在60年代早期，Massimiliano曾是Giorgio De Chirico的助理，在毕业之后，任职于伦敦阿基格拉姆学派，而后来则于哥本哈根与Henning Larsen 、Jørn Utzon共事。在1967年，他开始了首个项目GRANMA。Doriana于1985年与他合作，并且在1997年成为了共同合伙人。后来该事务所1989年开设巴黎工作室，于2004年开设深圳工作室。在2000年，Massimiliano Fuksas是第七届威尼斯建筑双年展的负责人，本次主题为“少一些美学，多一些道德”。他们的著名作品有法国巴黎阿里格涂鸦博物馆、深圳宝安国际机场、罗马欧洲会议中心、新米兰交易所、Zenith音乐厅、特拉维夫Peres和平住宅。最近，他们来到纽约，我便与他们会面，到目前为止，他们只在纽约完成了一个项目，即阿玛尼第五大道旗舰店。在本次会面中，我们聊了他们如何着手新项目，也聊了他们对于未来的看法，以及建筑的不同发展方向。

Italian architects Massimiliano and Doriana Fuksas were both born and grew up in Rome. Both graduated from La Sapienza University – he in 1969, she a decade later. He started his studies as a painter, she initially persued the history of art. In the early 60s, Massimiliano assisted Giorgio De Chirico and after graduation worked for Archigram in London and then for Henning Larsen and Jørn Utzon in Copenhagen. He started his first practice, the GRANMA in 1967. Doriana joined him in 1985 and became an equal partner in 1997. Subsequent offices were opened in Paris (1989) and in Shenzhen (2004). In 2000, Massimiliano Fuksas served as the Director of the 7th Venice Architecture Biennale under the theme "Less Aesthetics, More Ethics." The duo’s most recognized built works include Museum of Graffiti in Ariege, France; Shenzen Bao'an International Airport; EUR Convention Centre in Rome; New Milan Trade Fair, Rho-Pero; Zenith Music Hall in Strasbourg; and Peres Peace House in Jaffa, Tel Aviv. I met with the architects during their recent visit to New York where so far, they completed only one project, Armani 5th Avenue Flagship Store. We discussed how they start again with every project, their preoccupation with the future, and why buildings should try to become something else.


深圳宝安国际机场｜© Archivio Fuksas. Image Shenzhen Airport


深圳宝安国际机场｜© Archivio Fuksas. Image Shenzhen Airport

Vladimir Belogolovsky（下文称为VB）：你们都希望成为艺术家。艺术对于你们今天的作品有很大影响吗？

Massimiliano Fuksas（下文称为MF）：是的。但是更多的是哲学，而非艺术自身。我们无所谓形状与形式。它们变化多端。Arthur Schopenhauer曾经说过，“变化才是永恒不朽的。”如果你问我怎么做建筑，那么我也不会告诉你。但是建筑关乎文化、知识、教育，而非经济。其目的是让世界变得更美好。

Doriana Fuksas（下文称为DF）：我的方法不一样，因为我学的是艺术历史，而不是艺术。我也不会画画，因此我一般让他先着手。（笑）

VB：Massimiliano，那么你会怎么着手呢？你说过，“对我而言，这就是画画，然后标志着项目的开端。”

MF：我也不是直接就开始，我一直都在画图。我喜欢画画。然后就有项目了。我需要为项目的到来做准备。我会建立情感的密集度，以及考虑驱动因素。其实没有灵感，我们需要去表达自己的情感，这是一种感到惊讶的过程。

DF：想法永远不会突然出现，你需要考虑很多，关注人们的生活方式。建筑包含人类、环境，以及人类的欲望。建筑为人而存在，否则就是个失误。

Vladimir Belogolovsky: You both first wanted to be artists. Is art still a strong influence on your work today?
Massimiliano Fuksas: Yes, of course. But more philosophy than the art itself. We don’t care about shapes and forms. They come and go. Arthur Schopenhauer said, “Change alone is eternal, perpetual, immortal.” If you are going to ask me how I do architecture I will not tell you. But architecture is all about culture, knowledge, and education, not the economy. It is also about making our world a little bit better.
Doriana Fuksas: My approach is different because I studied art history, not art. I don’t paint, so I let Massimiliano start first. [Laughs.]

VB: Massimiliano, how do you start? You said, “For me, it is often a painting that marks the beginning of a concept.”
MF: I don’t start, I continue! I am always drawing and painting. And then the project comes. I need to be ready for a project to come at the right moment. I am building up the intensity of feelings and thinking that drives me. There is no inspiration; it is about getting ready to express our emotions to be able to give expression. A feeling of surprise is important.
DF: Ideas never come out of the blue; you need to look around and pay attention to how people live. Architecture should accommodate people, their environments and their desires. Architecture is for people; otherwise, it is a mistake.


斯特拉斯堡天顶音乐厅｜© Airdiasol. Image Zenith House in Strasbourg


斯特拉斯堡天顶音乐厅｜© Moreno Maggi. Image Zenith House in Strasbourg

VB：每个环境都很独特，那么每个项目也很独特，是吗？

MF：是的。我不会停止思考与绘画。但是对于每个项目，我会重复这个过程。

VB：你说过，“对我而言，建筑是忘却的艺术。否则，你会变得怀旧。每一天你都必须忘记一些东西。”

MF：是的，我们需要忘记自己过去的项目，重新开始画画。这个问题是，未来是什么？我是一位建筑师，对我而言，现在就是未来，我们必须要去想象，想象我们的未来。

VB：Wolf Prix曾经说过，“明天与昨天，就差两天。”

MF：是的。我们常常思考未来。但是这不仅仅是因为我们需要加速思考每件事。也不是因为客户迫使我们必须这么做。我们喜欢快速工作，因为我们希望保持自己的情感。我们需要制造出当下的决定，否则，我们就会缺乏密度与能量。

DF：我们必须要学会快速地做决定。更重要的是，我们不希望重复以前的工作。

VB: Every environment is very particular, so every project tends to be different, right?  
MF: That’s right, I don’t stop thinking and drawing, but with every project, I start again every time.

VB: You said, “For me, architecture is the art of forgetting. Otherwise, you become nostalgic. Every day you have to forget what you did the day before.”
MF: Yes, we forget our past projects and start from scratch, every time. The question is – what is the future? I am an architect and for me now is the future. We have to envision it; for us the future is today.

VB: Wolf Prix said, “Two days from now tomorrow will be yesterday.”
MF: Of course, we always think about the future. But it is not just because we need to accelerate everything. It is not because the clients push us to work fast. We like working fast because we want to keep up with our emotions. We need to make immediate and spontaneous decisions. Otherwise, there is no energy, no intensity.  
DF: There must be discipline and the decisions need to be made swiftly. Most importantly, we don’t want to repeat what we did before.


新米兰交易所｜© Archivio Fuksas. Image New Milan Trade Fair


新米兰交易所｜© Studio Fuksas. Image New Milan Trade Fair


新米兰交易所｜© Archivio Balloon Promotion sas. Image New Milan Trade Fair

VB：那么你的事业是在不断向前吗？你是否认为我们现在生活的时代是对于未来的庆祝呢？如果你环顾整个环境，你不会看到很多突破与冒险项目，比如蓬皮杜艺术中心，现在还需要进行革命性思维吗？你的作品是否考虑现实呢？

MF：唔，我们总是不断地结合当下。我喜欢满世界工作。我们喜欢了解别人的想法。但是，我们都会回归相同。我们又一样的需求一样的感受一样的梦想。我们不喜欢对自己的项目进行比较。

DF：我们不断前进，我们别无选择。

VB: Can you honestly say about your career that you are perpetually going forward? Do you think we live in the times when the future is celebrated? If you look around, you will not see many groundbreaking and risk-taking projects today. Look at the Center Pompidou, for example; there is nothing like it today. There is no need for that kind of revolution. Do you feel this reality in your work?
MF: Well, we are always engaged at the moment. I like working all around the world. We like the idea of understanding others and each other. But in the end, we are all the same. We have the same needs, the same feelings, and the same dreams. We don’t like to compare our projects.
DF: We move on. We have no choice.  


第比利斯公共服务大厅｜© Archivio Fuksas. Image Service Hall in Tbilisi

VB：你常常谈论情感，那么你的建筑背后的主要目的是什么呢？你的建筑关于什么？

MF：其实客户是一样的，并不是哪位先生或是哪位女士，对方都是一位实实在在的人。我们希望设计让人们能够梦想的东西。我们无所谓他们是否和我们的梦想相同，我们希望他们有自己的梦想。世界是为有梦想的人而存在的。有一天，所有的梦想家都会共同建造这个奇妙的世界。

VB：那对你来说什么是好建筑？

MF：那对你来说什么是坏建筑？

VB：对我来说，坏建筑就是我完全不会注意到的东西。

MF：嗯，那好建筑就是能够成为梦想的东西。

VB：你说过，“你对于未来的梦想必须多于过去。”

MF：无所谓你过去梦想到什么，也无所谓过去实现了多少。你也许已经有过1000个梦想，但是你对于未来还是需要至少有1000个梦想。

VB: You often talk about emotions and mood that architecture can bring to people. What are the main intentions behind your architecture? What is your architecture about?
MF: We always have the same client – not Mr. or Ms. Smith, but a human being. We want to design something that would allow people to have a dream. And we don’t want them to have the same dreams as ours. We want them to have their own dreams. The world is for dreamers. One day all the dreamers will get together to build a fantastic world.

VB: What is a good building for you?
MF: What is a bad building for you?

VB: For me, a bad building is something I would not notice at all.
MF: Well, a good building is something that is capable of becoming something else, a dream.

VB: You said, “You have to have more dreams for your future than about the past.”
MF: It doesn’t matter what dreams you had in the past and how many were realized. You may have realized one thousand dreams, but you still need to have a thousand dreams more. It is all about the future.


第比利斯rhike公园音乐中心和展厅｜© Archivio Fuksas. Image Rhike Park in Tbilis

VB：建筑师常常谈论到背景。但是你说过，“背景并不仅仅只是我们所要面对的东西，因为这关乎过去，但是这是对于城市未来的思考。当代世界意味着某个领域的作品需要考虑过去至少20年的状况。”

MF：在每个背景中我都看到了未来。如果你只顾眼前，那么就不会有梦想了。你无法保留一切，只能保留必要的东西。想要进步，我们必须改变环境背景，这就是未来。

MF：是的，这一切都是关乎建筑的感官感受。你不只是在用眼睛，贝多芬是听不见他的音乐的，他只能用眼睛去看，但是他能看见。什么是建筑？我们需要去发掘它。

VB: Architects now talk about context a lot. But you said. “The context is not only what we have in front of us, which is related to the past, but it is also thinking of the cities of the future. Being contemporary means working in an area considering how it will be at least in the next twenty years.”
MF: I see the future in every context. You can’t dream if you only see what’s in front of you now. You can’t preserve everything, only what is essential. To move forward we must change the context. The context is the future.
MF: Yes, it is all about being able to feel architecture with all your senses. You don’t just see it with your eyes. Beethoven could not hear his music, he could see it. What is architecture? We are just about to discover it. I am sure of it!


新罗马EUR区会议中心及酒店｜New Rome EUR. Image © Leonardo Finotti


新罗马EUR区会议中心及酒店｜New Rome EUR. Image © Leonardo Finotti


新罗马EUR区会议中心及酒店｜New Rome EUR. Image © Leonardo Finotti


特拉维夫Peres和平住宅｜© Amit Geron. Image Peres House


法国巴黎阿里格涂鸦博物馆｜Museum of Graffiti. Image © Aki Furudate