Benjamín Romano:“我专注于改善建筑”
Benjamín Romano: "I Focus on Improving the Building"

由专筑网邢子，李韧编译

最近几个月访问墨西哥城的经历让我了解了那里的一些顶尖建筑师。 在这个过程中，我又接触了其他几位对我而言并不陌生的建筑师，根据当地建筑界的情况，我发现他们实际上是该国领先且最受尊敬的建筑师。我特别指的是去年在这一专栏发表过的采访的Alberto Kalach、Mauricio Rocha以及BenjamínRomano，当我要求一些建筑师谈谈他们最近几年在墨西哥城最喜爱的建筑时，Benjamín Romano这个名字出现了。除了最受欢迎的卡拉奇Vasconcelos图书馆之外，还有另一栋建筑Torre Reforma塔楼，这是一座57层的办公大楼，是这座城市最高的建筑。我与Romano在这个有力而富有创造性的建筑内进行了以下对话。

Visiting Mexico City several times in recent months enabled me to get to know a number of leading architects there. In the process, I was in turn directed to other architects that were new to me, whom I then discovered were, in fact, the leading and most revered architects in the country according to the local architectural community. I am particularly referring to Alberto Kalach and Mauricio Rocha, whose interviews were published in this column last year, and Benjamín Romano, whose name came up when I asked a number of architects to cite their favorite building from recent years in Mexico City. Along with the absolute favorite, Vasconcelos Library by Kalach, another structure stood out: Torre Reforma, a 57-story office tower, the tallest building in the city. The following conversation with Romano, its architect, took place inside this unusually powerful and inventive structure.



Vladimir Belogolovsky：在访问开始之前，您自己有什么内容想要与大家分享吗？

BenjamínRomano：我被问了很多次这个问题，例如为什么我有这么几个项目，为什么我不在国际上进行项目设计？ 以下是我的答案，我专注于修改建筑设计方案。我喜欢设计和施工，我喜欢参与过程中的一切，我喜欢进行改进并完全控制我创建的体系结构。出于这个原因，我喜欢钻研于一个项目，我很享受这个过程。最近，我正在撰写一本名为《Doing》的书，这本书记录了设计建造Torre Reforma塔楼的过程。我在施工期间有数千张照片，我将在思考和施工过程中展示这座建筑的故事。

VB：您目前在做什么项目？

BR：目前，我有四个项目，都在墨西哥，即使你邀请我在中东做一个项目，我也不会去。我目前的大部分项目都在墨西哥城，包括办公楼、兼做工作室的住宅楼、当代艺术家Javier Marin的文化中心，在瓜达拉哈拉还有一个商业中心，是现有的历史建筑改造。

Vladimir Belogolovsky: Just to start—is there one particular question that you would want to be asked?
Benjamín Romano: I was asked a number of times this question: Why do I have so few projects and why am I not building internationally? Here is the answer—I focus on improving the building. I like both design and construction, and I like to be involved in everything about the process. I like the idea of making improvements and having total control over the architecture that I am creating. For that reason, I like working on one project at a time; I enjoy it. Lately, I am working on a book called Doing, which is about documenting the process of creating a single building—this building, Torre Reforma. I have thousands of photos from during the construction and I will present the story of this building both along the process of thinking and construction.   

VB: What projects are you currently working on?
BR: At this time, I have four projects, all in Mexico and even if you were to invite me to do a project in the Middle East I wouldn’t go. Most of my current projects are right here in Mexico City, including an office building and a residential development designed as part of the new studio and cultural center of contemporary artist Javier Marin, and there is a commercial center in Guadalajara, which will be built over an existing historical house.



VB：你的作品Torre Reforma塔楼是今天墨西哥城最具标志性的建筑。这是你原有的意图吗，为这个城市创造一座标志性建筑？

BR：没有。事实上，当我开始这个项目时，其他人建议我做一座直接的广场建筑，并且现场的历史建筑将被简单地封闭在新建筑内。而在规划阶段，我才意识到这个地方的城市化潜力。无论如何，没有特定的先入为主的意象。所有的设计决定都基于非常具体的条件和要求。例如，高度决定了建筑的退距宽度，其形态反映了这一点，并不纯粹是一种艺术手法。而且，建筑物的地板由结构体系形成。在我的项目中，我始终遵循各项规范、结构和其他因素。我的作品总是贴近环境，我认为，每个建筑师的责任是要首先意识到每个项目的限制条件，在进行个性化设计。

VB：您说的建筑并不是关于灵感。

BR：绝对不是。

VB: I think it would be fair to say that your Torre Reforma here is the most iconic building in Mexico City today. Was this your intention, to create a new iconic form for the city?
BR: Not at all. In fact, when I started the project I was advised to do a straightforward square building, and the historical house on the site was going to be simply enclosed within the new tower. Only during the planning stages did I realize the potential of this site urbanistically. In any case, there was no particular preconceived image. All of the design decisions were based on very specific conditions and requirements. For example, the uninterrupted height without a setback could be twice as high as Paseo de la Reforma is wide, the building’s kink reflects that; it was not purely an artistic gesture. Also, the building’s floor plates are shaped by structural considerations. In my projects I always follow the codes, structure, and other factors that I then manipulate. My compositions always come out of urban conditions. I think it is every architects’ responsibility—first to recognize the restrictions and respond to them before allowing any kind of personal gestures.

VB: You said that architecture is not about having inspirations.
BR: Absolutely not.



VB：您说建筑来自对地点、项目、结构等的分析。但是，Torre Reforma塔楼是如何生成的呢？如果让十位建筑师在这个场地上设计一座塔楼，将会有十种完全不同的解决方案。这意味着设计思路来自于建筑师，而其他所有的东西只是起到了辅助作用，但是并没有完全定义这个项目。这就是为什么我认为总是有一个特定的灵感驱动的设计背景。

BR：不是在我的项目中，也不是在这个项目中。我非常确定这一点。但是，首先，我们来定义什么是灵感？灵感是一个比喻，它可以来自任何地方。我相信解决方案，而不是灵感。其次，这里的场地是一个40米*40米的广场，周边历史建筑迫使我在塔楼上面运用三角形的平面形式。但是，这样的建筑面积会非常小，对客户来说无益。这就是为什么我建议把建筑悬挑在历史建筑物上方，并增大楼面面积。我们已经谈到了高度限制和体量。最后，未来在这里将会建造更多的建筑物，因此我将大部分的景观都定位于公园。另外也有结构上的考虑，我不喜欢在空间中排布柱子，这形成了极具表现力的外部形态，任何设计决策都受到许多条件限制，我很喜欢三角形，而且我经常在设计中使用它们。我不相信来自任何地方的灵感，我相信来自现实生活的解决方案。
  
VB：您可能是正确的，灵感来自任何地方，但它们也出于特殊原因。 你知道，你的Torre Reforma项目过程让我想起巴拉干的卫星城塔。

BR：当然。 我喜欢这些结构，也许它们反映在我的设计中，也是潜意识。 就具体比例而言，它们不仅基于建筑元素，还基于我一直试图融入的黄金分割比例。 我相信比例的力量，我相信秩序和清晰。 人们可能无法阅读项目背后的特定基本原理，但我认为拥有内部逻辑有助于人们直观地欣赏它。库哈斯曾经说过“操纵背景”， 但即使我想同意他的看法，现实情况也大不相同。 我们建筑师没有这种自由，我们的建筑物受到城市、街道、功能、结构等诸多因素的限制，我们的建筑是城市背景综合考量的产物。

VB: You said architecture comes out of analysis of the site, program, structure, and so on. But how can that be true with Torre Reforma? Wouldn’t you agree that if you asked ten architects to design a tower on this site you would have ten completely different solutions? Which means that the design comes from the architect, and all other things only contribute, however greatly, but they don’t define the work. That’s why I suggest that there is always a preconceived vision driven by a particular inspiration.
BR: Not in my case and not in this case. I am very certain of that. But first, let’s define what is an inspiration? An inspiration is a metaphor and it can come from anywhere. I believe in solutions, not inspirations. Again, the site here is a square—40 by 40 meters; the historical house in the corner forced me to come up with triangular floor plans in the tower above. But then the floor area would be very small and not useful for companies. That’s why I proposed to cantilever the building over the historical house and extend the floor plates with chamfered corners. We already talked about the height limitations and the kink. And finally, I knew that eventually, more buildings are going to be built all around here and for that reason I oriented most of the views toward the park. Then there are structural considerations—I hate having columns in the space, which led to a very expressive structure on the outside. There are so many conditions that come before any design decisions. I have to admit that I like triangles and I often use them in my designs. Still, I don’t believe in inspirations that come from nowhere; I believe in solutions that come from real life.

VB: You may be right that inspirations come from nowhere, but they also come for particular reasons. You know, your Torre Reforma profile reminds me of Torres de Satélite by Barragan.
BR: Sure. I like those structures and perhaps they were reflected in my design but if that’s the case, that happened subconsciously. As far as specific proportions, they are not only based on codes but on the Golden Section that I always try to incorporate. I believe in the power of proportions. I believe in order and clarity. People may not be able to read a particular rationale behind a project but I think having an internal logic helps to appreciate it visually. Rem Koolhaas said at one point, "Fuck the context." But even if I wanted to agree with him, the reality is very different. We, architects, don’t have that kind of freedom. Our buildings are conditioned by so many circumstances conditioned by the city, street, program, structure, and so on. My architecture is a product of context.



VB：您说您的建筑物是强大的结构表达。 您能谈谈这个想法吗？

BR：我喜欢冒险。 正如我所提到的，在Torre Reforma塔楼中，最初的想法是为了减少柱子。为了实现这一点，我必须悬挂这栋建筑。当我开始设计结构时，我无法预见结构的必要强度。我喜欢计算结果和表达结构的力量。有些塔楼可能会有类似的印象，但我相信这个塔楼与众不同，因为整座塔楼都由这种结构建造而成，我喜欢这座建筑不仅仅是展示一个特定的形象，而是表达一种非常强大的结构力量。

VB：您对建筑的标志性有什么看法？ 例如，Wolf Prix说：“我喜欢人们给建筑物所起的绰号。 一座城市必须拥有可识别的标志性建筑物。”您是否同意这个说法？

BR：是的，我同意。我不确定我们的建筑有没有绰号，但有些人称它为俄罗斯方块大楼，因为两个坚实的墙壁上有着特殊的开窗，但是如果你问我，我会更喜欢这座建筑被称为“方尖碑”。我喜欢昵称，因为这意味着人们已经注意到了建筑师的工作。

VB: You said you see your buildings as powerful and structural expressions. Could you touch on that idea?
BR: I like taking risks. As I mentioned, in Torre Reforma, the idea was to avoid having columns. To achieve that I had to hang the building. And when I started hanging the building I could not foresee the necessary strength of the structure. I love the result and the expression of the structure’s power. There are some towers that may have similar impressions but I believe this one is different because the whole tower is literally hanging. I like that this building is not just about projecting a particular image but to express an incredibly powerful force.

VB: What do you think about signature architecture? For example, Wolf Prix said, “I love when people give buildings nicknames. A city must feature identifiable and iconic buildings.” Do you agree and does Torre Reforma have a nickname?
BR: Yes, I agree. I am not sure our building has a nickname but some people call it the Tetris Building because of the characteristic window patterns in two solid walls. But if you ask me, I would love this building to be known as obelisk. I do love nicknames because it means that people have noticed the architect’s work.





VB：除了建筑师之外，您还是一名开发商。这是为什么？

BR：当我从墨西哥城的伊比利亚美洲大学（Universidad Iberoamericana）毕业时，没有从事任何建筑的工作。就在我个人的职业生涯中，墨西哥经历了四次经济危机和一次1985年的大地震。这五起灾难性事件中的每一起都伴随着经济的全面停滞，建筑的发展也制止不前，这就是为什么这里的建筑师甚至成为了自己的甲方，1984年是许多墨西哥建筑师的最后挣扎，因为那一年的危机来自1982年危机的后两年。那时我得出的结论是，我不再坐下来等待电话。我决定成为一名开发人员。我别无选择，许多其他墨西哥建筑师也没有选择，甚至今天许多建筑师都喜欢这种模式。

VB：你喜欢既是建筑师又是开发商？ 这种情况会给你更大的创作自由吗？

BR：我认为最好只当一名建筑师。这是因为，作为开发商，我们找到了土地，我们看到了潜力，然后我们寻找贷款人，并且我们承诺通过一定的金钱开发一个具有一定质量的特定项目，我们承担了成千上万人的责任。所以，我需要做出如此出色的工作才能发扬我的声誉......这太疯狂了。成为一名建筑师不是更好吗？！但我不会仅仅作为一名建筑师。不过，今天，我有更多的机会，我可以选择单纯的建筑设计工作，我更喜欢这样。

VB: You are a developer in addition to being an architect. Why is that?
BR: When I graduated from Universidad Iberoamericana here in Mexico City there were no jobs for architects. Just during my personal professional career, Mexico went through four economic crises and one major 1985 earthquake. Each of those five cataclysmic events was followed by years of total stagnation; there was no new construction of any kind. That’s why architects here are forced to act as our own clients. 1984 was the final call for many Mexican architects because that year’s crisis came just two years after the 1982 crisis. It was then that I came to a conclusion that I no longer could afford to sit and wait for a phone call. I decided to become a developer. I had no choice and many other Mexican architects didn’t have a choice, and even today many architects prefer this model.

VB: Do you like being both architect and developer? Does that situation give you greater creative freedom?
BR: I think it is better to be just an architect. Absolutely. This is because as developers, we find land, we see the potential, then we look for lenders, and we promise to develop a particular project with a certain quality for x amount of money. We take upon ourselves responsibilities for thousands of people. So, I need to do such excellent work to carry my reputation... That is insane. Isn’t it better to be just an architect?! But I would not survive simply as an architect. Still, today, I have more opportunities and I can choose to work on some projects as an architect only. I like that more.



VB：有您最喜欢的建筑吗？

BR：是Kevin Roche在纽约第42街的福特基金会总部大楼。我喜欢中庭、建筑的结构、建筑的力量，还有与曼哈顿城市噪音形成对比的宁静内部，而楼上的办公楼非常棒，它也非常规整，我敢打赌，纽约很少有人听说过它。它在街上的存在感非常微小，但是只要你进入建筑，你就会发出“哇”的惊叹！

VB：那么您在墨西哥城最喜欢的建筑呢？

BR：我有我最喜欢的景点，从中可以看到许多建筑物。我喜欢这里非常强大的现代主义建筑。但要选择一座建筑物，它必须是由Ricardo Legorreta设计的amino Real酒店，这座建筑为1968年奥运会而设计。

VB: Do you have a favorite building anywhere in the world?
BR: That would have to be the Ford Foundation on 42nd Street in New York by Kevin Roche. I love the atrium, the structure, the strength of the building, the peaceful contrast inside to the unbearable noise of Manhattan, and the offices upstairs are fantastic. It is also very discreet, and I bet very few people in New York ever heard of it. Its presence on the street is very minimal but the minute you go in—wow!   

VB: What about your favorite building here in Mexico City?
BR: I have my favorite spots, from which a number of buildings can be seen. I love modernist buildings here that are very powerful. But to choose one building it would have to be Camino Real that was built for the 1968 Olympics, designed by Ricardo Legorreta.



VB：您能说出最能描述您的建筑的单词吗？

BR：结构与管道，它们有着固定的路径，找到合适的位置非常重要。此外，就是流动性以及功能。

VB：您传递墨西哥建筑以及国际建筑文化，感觉怎么样？

BR：我相信你只有通过拜访他们才能真正了解建筑物。我带我的学生去参观那些精心设计的建筑，以及那些汲取多处经验的建筑。
  
VB: What single words can you name that describe your architecture best?
BR: Structure, plumbing, piping, which has to go through somewhere, and it is very important to find the right flow. Also, fluidity, functionality.
  
VB: You teach architecture here in Mexico and internationally. How?
BR: I believe that you can understand buildings only by visiting them. I take my students on trips to visit buildings that are well built, as well as the ones that are badly built to learn from both.



VB：有人告诉我，您与众不同，您不像其他墨西哥建筑师。您觉得他们是什么意思？ 他们告诉我，您在当地的建筑圈并不合群。

BR：我远离当地建筑圈，我也喜欢这样，我传达建筑文化，我来到办公室、工作、有几个建筑师朋友，我们每年一起旅行两次，看看建筑。但建筑不是我的生活。我有时会被邀请发言，于是我来了，我们讨论，然后我离开。[笑] 老实说，我并没有真正遵循任何趋势，我完全错过了后现代主义。我确信建筑不仅仅是想法，而是关于问题的解决方案。解决方案必须来自于建筑师，必须是你的解决方案，而不是你在杂志上看到的种种。

VB：您有自己的步骤或提议吗？

BR：我可以告诉你的是，当我受到期待某种外观的客户的项目邀请时，我绝对不会接受这样的邀约，我需要看到并了解场地，我无法想象有人会让我以另一个项目为原型来做建筑。如果你来找我，这将是我的项目，所以我会有自己的方案。 我想我回答了你的问题。

VB: Some people told me that you are different; you are not like other Mexican architects. What do you think they mean? They told me that you are not quite inside of the architectural community here.
BR: I am outside and I like it that way. I teach, I come to my office, I work. I have several architect-friends; we travel together twice a year to see architecture. But architecture is not what my life is all about. I am invited to give talks sometimes—I come, I do my talks, and I leave. [Laughs.] Honestly, I don’t really follow any trends. That’s how I entirely missed Postmodernism. I am convinced that architecture is not just about ideas; architecture is about solutions. And the solutions have to come from you, the architect. They have to be your solutions, not what you saw in magazines.

VB: Do you have a personal agenda in architecture?
BR: What I can tell you is that when I am invited by clients that expect a certain look, I definitely don’t accept their invitations. I need to see and understand the site. I can’t imagine a situation in which someone would ask me to look at another project as a prototype. If you come to me, it will be my project, so do I have an agenda? I think I answered your question.



VLADIMIR BELOGOLOVSKY是位于纽约的非营利策展项目的创始人。作为纽约库珀联盟的建筑师，他撰写了五本书，其中有《Conversations with Architects in the Age of Celebrity (DOM, 2015)》、《Harry Seidler: LIFEWORK (Rizzoli, 2014)》、《Soviet Modernism: 1955-1985 (TATLIN, 2010)》。他也举办了许多展览，其中有于2015年在阿根廷展出的“Anthony Ames: Object-Type Landscapes”展览，也有2013年至2015年展出的“Colombia: Transformed，还有“Harry Seidler: Painting Toward Architecture ”(自2012年开始的环球之旅)，他的作品有2008年第11届威尼斯建筑双年展为俄罗斯展馆设计的Chess Game 。Belogolovsky是柏林建筑周刊SPEECH的美国记者，他曾在20多个国家的大学和博物馆做过演讲。

Belogolovsky的“思想之城”专栏让ArchDaily的读者与来自世界各地最具创意的建筑师进行了持续的对话。这些讨论内容也将展示给公众，本次展览主题与其2016年6月在悉尼大学首演的标题一致。“思想之城”展览在世界各地的场馆展出，从而探索不断变化的内容和设计。

VLADIMIR BELOGOLOVSKY is the founder of the New York-based non-profit Curatorial Project. Trained as an architect at Cooper Union in New York, he has written five books, including Conversations with Architects in the Age of Celebrity (DOM, 2015), Harry Seidler: LIFEWORK (Rizzoli, 2014), and Soviet Modernism: 1955-1985 (TATLIN, 2010). Among his numerous exhibitions: Anthony Ames: Object-Type Landscapes at Casa Curutchet, La Plata, Argentina (2015); Colombia: Transformed (American Tour, 2013-15); Harry Seidler: Painting Toward Architecture (world tour since 2012); and Chess Game for Russian Pavilion at the 11th Venice Architecture Biennale (2008). Belogolovsky is the American correspondent for Berlin-based architectural journal SPEECH and he has lectured at universities and museums in more than 20 countries.
Belogolovsky’s column, City of Ideas, introduces ArchDaily’s readers to his latest and ongoing conversations with the most innovative architects from around the world. These intimate discussions are a part of the curator’s upcoming exhibition with the same title which premiered at the University of Sydney in June 2016. The City of Ideas exhibition will travel to venues around the world to explore ever-evolving content and design.




























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