采访及供稿：杨永悦（《建筑技艺》）
翻译：寻明 （纬度建筑事务所）

西班牙NSA主创建筑师

Q1：您二位的改扩建设计在焕发古迹生命力，延续地域文化建筑方面的成就非常值得钦佩和学习。中国也是一个建筑遗产大国，但大部分建筑师还是欠缺这方面的经验，而古建保护专家，政府、开发商、文保积极分子大家往往各说各话。想了解一下西班牙建筑师在遗产保护中可以起到哪些作用？与各方如何配合的？ A： 每一座城市都是一处地点、文化和国度的化身。西班牙是一个历史悠久的国家：从穆斯林入侵和帝国时代至当今民主制度时期，从建筑设计的角度来讲，历史的变迁在建筑发展史册中留下了不可估量的一笔。虽然这样的现实摆在我们这一代的西班牙建筑师的面前，但我们还以现代的视角尊重着这一变迁。        作为一个设计团队，我们一定会把回忆、图像、印象置于不断的更新之中。每个项目都在一定程度上反映出已有的现实空间和我们自己的回忆。要在具有历史和建筑价值的地区进行设计和建造，就需要清楚它在空间和时间上的变化。我们的项目是要在当代语汇和历史记忆之间建立对话,西班牙建筑师尤为擅长保持回忆与创造之间的平衡。 Q1.The renovation and expansion projects of you two show great amount of historical vitality, your architectural experience on emphasizing local culture is very inspiring. Most of the local architects in China are still in need of similar experience. Recently, we’ve heard different opinions from heritage protection experts, government, developers and other activists. Here I would like to know what Spanish architects can do about it, and how does the design team work together? A. Cities represent the History of each place, culture, and country. Here, in Spain, we have a very long History as a country: from the Muslim settlements and Imperial era to the military regime and, more recently, a democracy system. In architectural terms, all those historical events have left a significant architectural heritage. The Spanish architects of our generation face this reality with respect but yet from a modern perspective. As a team, we are bound to recollections, images, impressions, in permanent renewal. Each project reflects in some way the pre-existing physical reality but also our own personal memory. To design and build in areas of high historical and architectural value requires being aware of its transformation in space and time. Our projects try to establish a conversation between the contemporary language of our time and the memory of the past: in that sense, Spanish architecture has a long experience in keeping balance between memory and invention.

莫里茨古堡扩建

莫里茨古堡扩建

莫里茨古堡扩建

Q2：看到贵公司在与历史建筑设计的一些非常现代风格的建筑，例如：MORITZBURG城堡，这是否会受到批评，被人认为是损伤古建筑，不保护文物，从而引发一些争议？因为在中国可能大家伙更接受和谐的(如你们所做的MADINAT 博物馆那种）而非对比的，记得当时北京国家大剧院就是这样引发了轩然大波。您是否遇到过这样的挑剔指责，怎样克服阻力呢？ A：19世纪时，欧洲建筑界曾掀起一股历史建筑改造/修复的浪潮：约翰•拉斯金（John Ruskin）倡导现存建筑的“保留”，然而，Viollet-le-Duc则侧重“复原”，在当时，这一建筑辞藻还尚未存在。其实，让我们看一下欧洲那些古老的教堂：大部分教堂的建造历经数个世纪，但是我们仍能看到不同时期建造的建筑布局能够实现和谐共存。我们认为我们的风格更加贴近Viollet-le-Duc流派。        以莫里茨博物馆这个项目为例，我们为其增设了铝制新屋顶，其原因有两方面：首先，这种建筑材料光感较强；令一方面，浮出古堡的顶部银灰的颜色与德国北部的天空和谐交融，我们的任务则是在古建筑中重新演绎我们的阅历与知识，使现代建筑语言与古建筑产生对话。       虽然这类项目在当地经常引发争议，但我们认为项目还是很受欢迎与称赞的。 Q2. We can see that the historical architecture designed by your company is very modern style. Let’s take MORITZBURG castle as an example: many people believe that this architecture approach will bring harm to the heritage architecture, instead of protect it. Is there any controversies occurred during the design process? In China, harmonious styles are much friendlier to the architecture featured with strong contrast. If you ever be criticized like that, and how to deal with it? A. In the ninetieth century, it used to be two remarkable schools in Europe of how to deal with rehabilitation/restoration of historical buildings: one lead by John Ruskin with more emphasis in the “retention” of the status quo of the existing situation of the building, and on the other hand, Viollet-le-Duc with put more emphasis in a "restoration" that creates something that never actually existed in the past. In that sense, the profession has turned to understand that it is more honest to intervene in historical buildings with a languages that correspond to the time that intervention is taking place. Actually, we can see all those cathedrals in Europe. They were developed during centuries and you can see the different languages in their different parts of the buildings co-existing together. In our case, we can say that we feel closer to the Viollet-le-Duc school interpretation. In Moritzburg Museum we used aluminum on the roofs because it expressed lightness and merges with the grey skies of the North of Germany. Our task is to interpret trough our knowledge and experience an existing reality, introducing a contemporary architecture in dialogue with the pre-existing conditions. Although the project created some local controversial at the beginning, we think it has been greatly welcomed.

圣特尔莫博物馆

圣特尔莫博物馆

圣特尔莫博物馆

Q3：西班牙圣特尔莫博物馆(SAN TELMO MUSEUM)那片迷人的植物墙了结合西班牙在古建筑建那种对比非常迷人，可以讲讲当时怎么想到要采用这样的设计吗？ A： 和我们其他设计作品类似，我们当时并没有刻意地去采用某种特殊的理念来设计圣•特尔莫博物馆。我们不认为只有一种方法，建筑总是源于多个看似无关的事件，而后它们相互联系在一起，并最终凝结成一座建筑。圣•特尔莫博物馆就是这样，项目的特点就是用帮助植物生长的穿孔金属表达自然/技术的二元性。在博物馆外立面设计中，我们与艺术家费兰（Ferrán）和奥特罗（Otero）合作完成。我们对视觉艺术与建筑设计的结合有着浓厚的兴趣，我们部分设计作品曾引入“装饰”这一概念，即选用特定的图案、材质实现概念的表达。以圣•特尔莫博物馆为例，大家可以清晰的看到穿孔过后的金属皮支撑了山体植物的生长。可以说，我们对作为装饰的装饰物不感兴趣，而是要材料的表达价值。 Q3. The combination of SAN TELMO MUSEUM and old architecture in Spanish is fantastic.  Could you tell us what inspire you to choose such a design? A. As it happens in many other buildings, we did not have any particular methodology to develop San Telmo. It was more a consequence of multiple apparently unconnected circumstances that ended up resembling one another and finally crystallized in the building. In San Telmo museum we were inspired by the duality nature/artifice of the site and the new construction. In the design of its façade we worked together with the artists Ferrán and Otero. We are especially interested in the field of joint experimentation between the Visual Arts and Architecture. In several of our projects we have considered to work with the idea of “ornament”, using patterns or textured skins, as a consequence of a conceptual approach. In San Telmo, you can see that perforated metal skin that supports the growth of plants. In that sense, we are not interested in ornament as decoration but as the expressive value of the material.

约翰伦博物馆

约翰伦博物馆

约翰伦博物馆

Q4：非常喜欢JOANNEUM博物馆，请详细谈谈设计理念和故事吗？还有西班牙卢戈的互动博物馆那种圆柱状建造时一定也遇到不少问题，如何解决？ A：约翰伦（JOANNEUM）博物馆的设计手段非常独特。与其增设一处新地标，我们将博物馆设计成为一处公共开放空间。从建筑的角度来讲，约翰伦博物馆是城市空间的介入。无论单体建筑还是小规模介入，都可成为公共空间的枢纽，就像一本可以转变你的思想的书一样。        在卢戈的历史博物馆，我们用了耐候钢，因为氧化会让人想起临近的工业建筑，我们从不任意的选择材料，总有一个项目的概念和创意有关的含义， 在我们的建筑设计实践中，装饰物的使用不仅要符合某一地点的特定环境，而且要有相应的技术去实现。前提是技术可行、容易掌握的。卢戈互动博物馆烟囱般的钢柱子外形的设计灵感来源于当地悠久的工业文化。 Q4. I am very interested to know the design concept and designing stories about Joanne museum, personally I really like this project. Regarding interactive museum, I am sure you were facing many difficulties in creating the column-shaped façade, how did you cope with that situation? A. Joanne museum is really a rare project in its hidden condition. Instead of a new landmark we wanted to act in the strict limits of the horizontal plane of the city, offering a new public space. It is an intervention in urban and architectural terms. In that sense, we think a single building or even a small intervention can be the origin of a deep transformation, in the same way that a good book can change your way of thinking. In the History Museum in Lugo, Interactive museum, we used the corten steel because oxide evokes the neighboring industrial buildings. We never choose materials randomly: there is always a meaning in relation to the concept and the idea of the project. In our architecture, material is always a consequence of an idea which should matches with the specific circumstances of each place and available construction techniques. In that sense, it was possible, with not too much difficulty, to create corten-steel chimneys because the large industrial tradition in Lugo.

科​尔​多​瓦​当​代​艺​术​中​心

萨拉戈萨世博馆

萨拉戈萨世博馆

Q5：CCC Cordoba的蜂窝状的造型还有Zaragoza Congress Center的瓷砖拼贴与钢网很美丽，是采用了参数化数字化的设计生成吗？你们对于未来参数化建筑可生成各种复杂的不必要的形态，越来越多的乱世建筑怎么看？是否是现代主义走向极端的一种表现，如同古典主义走到了繁复的巴洛克和洛可可。   A：我们认为，当今时代依然是与始于1920年代的现代建筑时代联系在一起的。另外，我们所处的当代大环境是不断变化着的。我们不可避免地要受新信息和通讯媒体、环境问题、科学与技术进步的影响，它们一直在为我们的项目和创意带来启发与干预。正因如此，我们也将电脑技术引进项目之中。电脑技术拓宽了我们的设计范围，而电脑时代之前这些可能是无法实现的。        另外，我们并不认为古典主义已走向洛可可时代。现代建筑主义建筑打开了很多扇门，也关上了很多其他的，装饰物就是一例。比如科尔多瓦当代艺术中心和萨拉戈萨世博馆同德国小组“实现：联合”设计的动态艺术投影里面。这些都是城市空间中不同寻常的创意，拓展了公共艺术与建筑的范围和界限。       值得强调的是，“装饰物”其实是材料的价值、设计驱动理念的产物。 Q5. The façade of C4 museum and Zaragoza Congress Center is very beautifully designed. Are those patterns created based on the digital format?  What is your opinion on ………, what do you think the generic architectures? Is it a manifestation that modernist is becoming extreme, just like the Classicism used to be developed into Baroque and Rococo’s complex style? A. We think that our time is still linked to the time of Modern Architecture that started in the 1920s. In addition, we are immersed in a contemporary context that is always changing. We find ourselves inevitable influenced by the information and communication media, environmental problems, scientific and technological advances. In that sense, computer technologies are constantly suggesting and interfering in our projects and ideas. Technology helps us to have a large range of possibilities and also possibilities that were not able to be develop before computer era. On the other hand, we do not agree with the idea that the development of the ornament can be assimilate to Rococo era. Modern Architecture opened many doors but also closed many others, as happened with ornament, for example. In the case of the Contemporary Art Center in Cordoba, and Zaragoza as well, we designed a dynamic façade for artistic projections with the German group Realities: United. This is a usual intervention in an urban space that extends the scope and boundaries between the public art and architecture. Again, ornament as value of the material and the outcome of the driving idea behind each (not generic) specific project.

卢戈历史博物馆

卢戈历史博物馆

卢戈历史博物馆

Q6：当以资本运作为驱动力的现代主义将一切（包括人们的生活、城市和价值观等）进行均质化、趋同化之时，建筑学这门古老的学科体系也正经历着巨大的冲击与震荡。威尼斯双年展贵公司的获奖作品，是寓意或调侃目前建筑师的话语权丧失和职业环境变差吗？ A：我们大多数的项目是通过公开方案征集竞赛获得的。近年来我们发现一个很明显的现象，公共管理部门这类文化综合体项目的设计企业资源，从某种意义上讲，私营企业正逐步取代公共管理部门曾经扮演的角色。        当今社会的快速发展是不可避免的，但我们仍然坚信建筑师在建设过程扮演着重要的角色。建筑师能够充分理解工程师、城市规划师、建设者、经济学家、政治学家以及业主所想。今年我们的设计作品获得了威尼斯双年奖，虽然建筑师的职业环境发生了翻天覆地的变化，过去十年间（即建筑师话语权丧失时期），我们认为，只有建筑师才能在巨大的社会体系中把控业主需求、场地、形式、材料与设计理念之间的平衡，在项目中可以清楚地看到其化身。 Q6. Under the driving force of capital operation and modern socialism (include people's life style, city and values, etc.), the phenomenon of homogenizing and assimilation start to emerge, “architecture”-- is undergoing a great impact and shock. We know that your company has been awarded with Venice Biennale this year, does this award presents the lost power of architects and professional environment changing? A. Most of our career has been developed trough public tenders for public buildings. Recently, we have observed a significant phenomenon where the public administration does not have the resources to get involved in the enterprise of developing this sort of cultural complex, any more. In that sense, the private sector has taking over the role that the public administration used to play. Although the scenario has changed inevitably, we still think the architect is the sole agent of the constructive process. Architects are able to understand all over the multiple partial versions that engineers, urban planners, builders, economist, politicians or clients have. The recognition of the Venice Biennale to our work, and the work of our colleagues, represents the vision that architects have of the society: although the scenario where architects work in has changed dramatically during the last decade (with a significant lost if decision power) we think architect are the only ones to establish connections between needs, places, forms, materials and concepts which we materialize in projects.

莫里茨古堡扩建

莫里茨古堡扩建

莫里茨古堡扩建

莫里茨古堡扩建

萨拉戈萨世博馆

萨拉戈萨世博馆

科​尔​多​瓦​当​代​艺​术​中​心

科​尔​多​瓦​当​代​艺​术​中​心

科​尔​多​瓦​当​代​艺​术​中​心

相关项目

Cellars in Picón

这个机会给我们带来的是项目和工作在伊比利亚半岛附近的荒凉岛屿上的客户，在我们第一次参观调研整个场地的时候，通过敏锐和灵敏地对周边环境进行一番调研和观察，激发了我们对整个项目的概念设计和一个愉悦的开始。 The chance offered to us by the project and the client to work on a virgin inland Iberian landscape —using and activating the topographic, visual, perceptiveand sensorial qualities that we perceived and received on our first visit— sufficed as stimuli for the project's commencement and its concept.

由于，我们正在处理一个完全新的由葡萄园和地窖组成的场所，所以，我们没有问自己，在这种因为一个新的人造景观，一个新的建筑，或者一个新的方向，使得一切都将被重新对待的情况下，我们是否可以设计一个项目，对景观的影响较小，。这里都已经有了坚硬的地面，坡度平缓，常绿橡树林的精致，小的天然湖泊，景观在不同的层会激活，并以不同的方式增强联系，这将给我们带来新的灵感。        另一方面，业主要求有一个工业化的应对方法，优化其原本设想的功能和预算。我们感受到，在葡萄园的东西方向，设计一个自然的从斜坡生长出来并能远眺景观的80×17米的单元，可以完美的解决方案中所提出的要求。插入的山坡中的这儿部分，产生两种类型的空间纵向：插入地面（生产区）和越过地面（社区）。         这个项目的空间主题从这两种的空间类型之间生成。 Because we were dealing with a totally new vineyard and cellar complex, we did not ask ourselves how we could design a project with a weak impact on thelandscape because in this case, everything would be proposed afresh, with a new artificial landscape, a new building, and a new directionality. Everything thatwas already there —the rocky ground, the gentle slope, the exquisite forest of evergreen oaks, the small natural lake, the different layers of landscape— wouldbe interrelated, activated and enhanced in a different way, which would be new for us. On the other hand, the nature of the brief required an industrialised response, optimised for its envisaged use and its budget. The decision to design an 80 x17 m unit along the vineyard’s natural east-west orientation, inserted on a slope overlooking the landscape, arose naturally, a response in unison to almost allthe programmatic and usage requirements, as well as to the conversations and feelings that we had on the site. This unit, inserted into the hillside, generatestwo types of spaces longitudinally: inserted (production area) and above-ground (social area). The project’s spatial theme emerges from the relationship between these two types of spaces.

这个项目中有一个主要问题是金属外围护结构的特性对自然景观的影响。“，构成了对施工中的解决方案建设的主题，也为我们研究方面的重要性，规模和最终的感知，是由我们的工作一直在打褶的形式和其他感知变量空间潜力，近年来几乎工作室做的；一个戏剧性的交叉的工作，在我们的工作室。        其中一个项目的主要问题出现在了工业金属外壳对自然景观景观的影响。“打褶的金属皮肤”构成了建筑的解决方案方面，也是在我们的研究方面建设的主律；质感、尺度和最终的感觉，都源于我们工作室近几年一直在做感知打褶形式和其他变量空间的工作；这种反复的工作在我们工作室几乎是戏剧性的。 One of the project's main issues arises in terms of the nature of the industrial metal envelope and its response to the landscape. The ‘pleated metal skin’, whichconstituted the main theme of the building in terms of the construction solution and also in terms of our research into its materiality, scale and final perception,arose from the work we have been doing in the studio in recent years on the spatial potential of pleated forms and other perceptive variables; almost a dramaticcross-over of the work that circulates around our studio.

因此，皮肤打褶给人的外观，不仅有其机械的刚度，同时反射的景色会随着光和观察者的运动有细微的变化，其实这比我们刚开始提出的想法要好的多。 So the pleated skin gives the façade not only its mechanical stiffness, but also a response to the light, movement and changing reflections of the colours andthe nuances in the landscape, whose reality is magnified in terms of the initial goals of our project.

结构： 1、外观结构。12厘米厚钢筋束，宽度可变。用ValentineM-005清理打磨，涂抹合成的白色金属搪瓷防锈底漆。 2、用香槟色4毫米穿孔Larson铝薄片折叠。 3、防水Pladur WA表面（T = 15毫米）打磨，表面用Valentine缎面塑胶漆涂抹。 4、用Larson压铝做LCH1阶梯状。 5、用3毫米Larson铝做LCH2安装角度。 6、LC3挂片用于复合外墙面板干挂。 7、风琴立面。尺寸为1200x2250mm的4毫米打褶的尔森铝薄片。附着于用凹陷不锈钢螺栓配套的铝结构。 8、光影效果用穿孔板为每条4毫米厚的Larson铝薄片，参照DF设计 9、防水Pladur WA （T = 15毫米）石膏板拱腹，打磨，表面用Valentine缎面塑胶漆涂抹 10、亚光不锈钢结构钢带。外形尺寸160x80x9mm 11、角端钢龙骨 12、防水胶布Rhenofol CG T = 1.5毫米 13、屋面防水用Coperfil RK64或相似的夹芯板，T =6厘米。条形连接。 1 Facade structure. Reinforced beam 12cm thick, variable width. Cleaned, sanded, prepared, with rustproof undercoat and Valentine M-005 or white synthetic metal enamel. 2 Folded, perforated Larson aluminium finish sheeting 4mm in champagne metal. 3 Water resistant Pladur WA sheet (t=15mm) prepared, sanded, painted in Valentine satin plastic paint. 4 LCH1 stile shape in Larson extruded aluminium. 5 LCH2 attachment angle in Larson aluminium 3mm. 6 LC3 hanging piece for composite facade panel. 7 Concertina facade in pleated Larson aluminium sheeting. Dimensions 1200x2250mm. t=4mm. Attached to auxiliary aluminium structure with recessed stainless steel bolts. 8 Light void with perforations as per DF design for strips of Larson aluminium sheeting (t=4mm). Dimensions 1200x2250mm. 9 Water resistant Pladur WA plasterboard soffit t=15mm, prepared, sanded, painted in Valentine satin plastic paint. 10 Matt stainless steel structural strips.Dimensions 160x80x9mm. 11 Strip for angle formation. 12 Waterproof PVC sheeting Rhenofol CG t=1.5mm 13 Waterproof roofing in Coperfil RK64 or similar sandwich panel.