保拉•瑞哥历史博物馆｜Casa das Histórias Paula Rego, 2008. Image © Fernando Guerra | FG+SG

Eduardo Souto de Moura：展望策略，寻求表达
Eduardo Souto de Moura: “I Look Beyond Solution; I Look For an Expression”

由专筑网李韧，邢子编译

2011年普利兹克建筑奖获得者艾德瓦尔多·苏托·德·莫拉（Eduardo Souto de Moura）的建筑风格很难概括，其美学与设计风格有着坚定的理念，同时也有着强烈的个人风格。在其作品中，这意味着神秘，同时又不浮夸。2011年普利兹克建筑奖的评审成员曾经说过，“他的作品具有特别的能力，似乎能够传达矛盾的力量，例如权威与谦卑、勇敢与微妙、大胆的公共特征与亲密性质等等。”Vladimir Belogolovsky在其专栏“City of Ideas”之中与Eduardo Souto de Moura进行了交流，讨论了建筑理念，以及这些作品背后的神秘思想。

The architectural approach of 2011 Pritzker Prize-winner Eduardo Souto de Moura can be difficult to summarize. His convictions on matters of aesthetics and design are strongly held, but also highly individual and at times even unusual. In his work, this translates to buildings that are enigmatic, yet not flashy—in the words of the 2011 Pritzker Prize jury, “His buildings have a unique ability to convey seemingly conflicting characteristics—power and modesty, bravado and subtlety, bold public authority and sense of intimacy—at the same time.” In the latest interview from his “City of Ideas” series, Vladimir Belogolovsky speaks to Souto de Moura to probe his architectural mind and understand the thinking behind these powerful yet modest works.


Vladimir Belogolovsky（下文称为VB）：我曾经参观过里斯本郊区的Paula Rego博物馆，这是一座标志性的雕塑作品。

Eduardo Souto de Moura（下文称为SM）：你为什么说它是雕塑？我不同意。

Vladimir Belogolovsky: I had a chance to visit your Paula Rego Museum in Cascais outside of Lisbon, which is a very sculptural composition of iconic forms...
Eduardo Souto de Moura: Why are you saying it is sculptural? I don’t agree.


保拉•瑞哥历史博物馆｜Casa das Histórias Paula Rego, 2008. Image © Vítor Gabriel

VB：（笑）我只是在表达我的概念，那么你说说它为什么不是雕塑呢？

SM：我喜欢雕塑，喜欢艺术，但是建筑不是艺术，也不是雕塑。Paula Rego博物馆不是雕塑，因为雕塑没有内部功能。如果我是雕刻一座雕塑作品，那么里面应该什么也没有。Paula Rego是一座建筑，这座建筑由几个部分组成，其中包含有图纸、画作、装置、书店、咖啡厅，以及中央临时展览空间。博物馆很小，只有地面一层，从远处甚至无法看到。那么博物馆在哪里呢？因此，我让博物馆的不同空间与周围的绿树形成对比。这些形式的规模类比于附近的一座建筑，我应用同样的材料来呼应它。因此这座博物馆具有这个地方的场所记忆。

VB: [Laughs.] Well, I am just expressing my impression and you can tell me why you think it is not sculptural.
SM: I like sculpture. I like art. But architecture is not art, and it is not sculpture. The Paula Rego Museum is not a sculpture because a sculpture has no function inside. If I cut a sculpture—inside there will be nothing. Paula Rego Museum is architecture. The museum is a complex of several buildings. They contain drawings, paintings, and installations for the permanent collection, a bookshop, a cafeteria, and one space in the middle for temporary exhibitions. The museum is very small, just on the ground floor, so from a distance you can’t see it. Where is the museum? So I proposed to identify these different spaces of the museum with red towering forms in contrast to the greenery and tall trees all around. The scale of these forms is similar to a palace nearby and the materials I used are similar to other memorable buildings in the area. So the museum is constructed out of my memory of the place.


布拉加市政球场｜Braga Municipal Stadium, 2003. Image © Leonardo Finotti

VB：如果想从你对于雕塑的兴趣开始这段对话，那么就不得不提雕塑家Donald Judd，你认识他吗？

SM：1993年，我在苏黎世教书，我的学生们向我介绍了Judd的作品。我当时并不了解。他们给我看了他的书《建筑》，同时我也去苏黎世的一座博物馆中看了他的家具作品展览。后来我阅读了他的著作，同时深深迷上他的作品。他说不喜欢雕塑家作品的抽象感，他想要制作出具有社会意义的建筑作品。当我读到此处时，我将这些与自己的想法联系了起来，因为我对建筑也有些厌倦，我甚至梦想成为一名摄影师。在书里，他说不想像艺术家那样独自地工作，而建筑师却恰恰相反，建筑师的身边有太多人絮絮叨叨，这会对作品产生许多影响，例如项目合作方、工程师、政治人员、大众等等。总的来说，他的想法让我引发了共鸣，有一天，我在书店中听到有人在谈论葡萄牙与西扎，那个人便是唐纳德·贾德（Donald Judd），我向他进行了自我介绍。后来我们便开始了沟通交流，我答应去听他在波尔图的讲座。几个月之后，他的行程也得到了一些必要的支持，后来，他因癌症而离世。再后来，我参观了他的马尔法基金会，并且看到了他设计的一些景观装置与建筑小品。我欣赏他的抽象艺术与乡土艺术及建筑的结合方式，他在我心中是一位英雄，同时也是我建筑设计道路上的一盏明灯。另外，密斯也对我产生了重要的影响。

VB: The reason I wanted to start this conversation by talking about your interest in sculpture has to do with sculptor Donald Judd. You knew him in person, right?
SM: In 1993, I was teaching in Zurich and my students introduced me to the work of Judd. I didn’t know it before. They gave me his book Architecture and I went to see his furniture exhibition in a gallery in Zurich. I bought the catalog and read his texts, and became fascinated with his writings. He said he was tired with the very abstract solitary work of a sculptor and he expressed a desire to do architectural projects with social purpose. When I read it, I identified it with my own desires because I felt tired with architecture and I was still dreaming about becoming a photographer. In the book, he said that he didn’t want to work alone like an artist. The artist lives alone, while the life of an architect is the opposite. We are surrounded by too many people who want to influence our decisions—our collaborators, engineers, politicians, the public, and so on. Anyway, I liked his ideas and one day I was in a bookstore and heard someone talking about Portugal and álvaro Siza. So I came up, introduced myself, and the person was Donald Judd. We started talking and I promised to him to organize his lecture in Porto. A few months later, we received all the necessary support for his trip and then we found out that he passed away from cancer. After that, I visited his foundation in Marfa, Texas and saw many of his installations in open landscapes and small buildings that he remodeled and built. I like how he crosses abstract art with vernacular art and architecture. He is a hero to me, and one of the key references for my architecture. Mies van der Rohe is another important influence.


葡萄牙 MIEC + MMAP 双博物馆｜MIEC + MMAP, by álvaro Siza and Eduardo Souto de Moura, 2012. Image © João Morgado

VB：那么，在受到Judd的影响之后，是否能说说你如何处理雕塑和建筑之间的关系呢？

SM：不，忘记雕塑吧，我不是一位雕塑家。我的观点是，Judd将雕塑转化为建筑，因为他不想如同雕塑家般孤立地存在，因此才像建筑师那样进行合作地工作，从而构思具有社会意义的作品。

VB: So after what you told me about being influenced by Judd, would it be accurate to say that your work is a cross between sculpture and architecture?
SM: No! Forget sculpture. I am not a sculptor. My point was that Judd shifted from sculpture to architecture because he was tired of working alone as a sculptor, gravitating toward the much more collaborative work of an architect to produce work that has a social dimension and social significance.


布拉加市政球场｜Braga Municipal Stadium, 2003. Image © Leonardo Finotti

VB：那么你认为你作品的主要目的是什么？

SM：没有目的，我不喜欢建筑师解释设计意图的时刻，诸如他们想要创造诗意建筑等言论。

VB: What would you identify as the main intention of your work?
SM: There is no intention! I hate when architects try to explain their intentions by saying that they want to make poetic architecture, for example.


达斯伯纳达斯修道院｜Convento Das Bernardas, 2012. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves

VB：你曾经说“叙事建筑是一场灾难”。

SM：是的，我不喜欢故意而来的情绪。对我来说，实体便已足够。我不想知道作者想要说什么，我只想为自己来理解建筑。

VB: You said that “narrative architecture is a disaster.”
SM: Exactly. I don’t like explanations and particular emotions that are intentionally provoked. For me, an object is enough. I am not interested in knowing what the author wanted to say. I want to read and interpret architecture for myself.  




Cantareira 大厦｜Cantareira Building, 2013. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves

VB：你只想构思建筑本身，而不想进行解释。

SM：我想要做一些让人们快乐的东西。我不喜欢Christian Norberg-Schulz书中的说法，这本书名字叫《 Intentions in Architecture》。我喜欢的是，“通向地域的路充满了善意的目的”这样的话，你无法将这个过程合理化。一个项目并不能得出有意义的结论，如果你想要解释你的目的，那么你也许就在撒谎。

VB: You want to make architecture itself, not represent anything.
SM: I want to make objects where people can live and be happy. I hate Intentions in Architecture, the book by Christian Norberg-Schulz. And I like the phrase, “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.” You can’t rationalize the process. A project is not a meaningful conclusion. If you try to explain your intentions, you are lying.


葡萄牙Miguel Torga Space文化中心｜Miguel Torga Space, 2011. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves

VB：那你的目标是什么？你希望通过建筑来实现什么吗？

SM：首先，要表达自己的方式，以及自己的观点。我是自己的客户，那么这就意味着我要做自己的建筑。如果我高兴，那么我的作品就很有用，它能够让我的客户高兴，那么目标就实现了。那些说为他人工作的人都是在撒谎，我首先得满足我自己，在这个前提下，其他人才会感觉满意。

VB: Then what is your goal? What do you want to achieve with your architecture?
SM: First, to express my personal way, my personal opinion. I am my own client, meaning that first, I do architecture for myself. If I am happy, if my work is useful, and it makes my client happy then the goal is achieved. Architects who say they are working for others are lying. I have to satisfy myself first. If that happens, there is a chance for others to be satisfied as well.  


葡萄牙Sete Cidades的27栋住宅｜27 Dwellings in Sete Cidades, by Eduardo Souto de Moura and Adriano Pimenta, 2011. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves

VB：那么你如何开始一个项目呢？你好像不喜欢从最初开始。

SM：是的，从最初开始不是一个明智的决定，因为其中有太多东西了，我常常重复看着我以前的作品，看看它们是否能够适应新环境。这只是个开始，然后它们会互换身份。每次我开始一个项目时，都会希望它能够变成某个样子。那么如果没有其他任何变化，项目也就此结束，任务也就此完成。在我工作时，我会需要很多信息。我也总是挑战自己的形式与平面，看看它们是否符合不同的状况与条件。当然，客户的需求总是重要的，即使客户并不那么明智。我无法在真空中工作，因为没有这样的过程。生命的美学存在于矛盾之中，我也需要紧张感。柯布说过，“建筑不是彼此，而是之间”。

VB: How do you typically start a project? I read that you never like to start something entirely from scratch.
SM: It is not wise to start from scratch. There is so much knowledge... I often recycle my previous projects to see how they can adapt to the new situation. This is just to start and then they transform. Every time I start a project in the hope that it will change into something. If nothing changes, the project is over. The quest is fulfilled. When I work, I need as much information as possible. I always challenge my forms and plans to see how they conform to the problem at stake. And, of course, you always need a client. Even if a client is stupid, I need his stupidity. I can’t work in a vacuum. There is no one process. The beauty of life is in its contradictions. I need tension. Le Corbusier said, “Architecture is not this or that; it is in between.”


达斯伯纳达斯修道院｜Convento Das Bernardas, 2012. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves

VB：你的书《Floating Images: Eduardo Souto De Moura's Wall Atlas 》有着各种速写、项目照片、现场状况，以及住宅、中世纪塔楼、航空母舰、海上石油平台的剪报，另外还有各种优雅的服装与烟盒。这些图像都在你的工作室之中，那么它们有什么作用呢？是否会影响到你？

SM：有的，就像一束光线，我常常会看到一些激发想法的东西。如果我喜欢某张图片，我就会把它保存下来，因为以后可能用得到，当然以后也可能用不到。你看墙上的这张图，这就是发生在中国的一场火灾，如果你用特殊的角度来看待它，也许能够从中看到盖里作品的影子。此类图像和项目之间存在某种联系，但是我不喜欢描述这个过程。

VB: Your book, Floating Images: Eduardo Souto de Moura’s Wall Atlas features your sketches, photos of various projects, ruins, clippings from newspapers and magazines of houses, medieval towers, aircraft carriers, offshore oil platforms, ads of elegant dresses and cigarette packs. All these images are pinned or archived at your studio here. What role do they play in your work and how do they influence you?
SM: Directly. It is like a flash. I see something intriguing that sparks my interest. I don’t think about it. If I like an image, I keep it and I might use it or I may never use it. Look at this picture on the wall. [Points to a picture pinned on the wall right behind me.] This was a fire in China. If you frame it in a particular way, you may recognize some projects by Frank Gehry in there. There is a connection between such images and projects. But I don’t like explaining how the process works.


波乐图地铁[音乐宫站]｜Casa da Musica Subway Station, 2005. Image © Fernando Guerra | FG+SG

VB：所以你收集这些作品，它们也许有一天会成为你的灵感源泉，也许并不会，是吗？

SM：建筑就是不断学习。我们学习应用所看到的东西，但是当这种学习应用的过程是有意而为时，就是一场灾难，它本应该是无意识发生的。

VB: So you collect these images and they may spark this flash one day or they may not...
SM: Architecture is all about copying. We copy the things that we see. But when this copying process happens consciously it is a disaster. It should be subconscious, almost unintentional.   


圣玛丽亚多波罗修道院｜Santa Maria do Bouro Convent, by Eduardo Souto de Moura and Humberto Vieira, 1997. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves

VB：所以你并没有刻意的去创造什么，只是这个灵感迸发的过程具有变革意义。

SM：如果我脑海中有资料库，我在工作时，这些资料就会浮现出来，这就是无意识。我在构思解决方案，在寻找表达方式，我同样也在进行收集。举例来说，我喜欢Freud的“真理的发现过程便是不断地犯错”，另一个则是Beckett的“曾经尝试、曾经失败，没关系，那就再次尝试、再次失败，最终变得更好”。因此，目的是一样的，那就是找到特别的东西。

VB: So nothing is invented. This process of coming to a solution is transformational.
SM: Let’s say I have a library of images in my head. When I am working, these images come up. This is unconscious. I look beyond solution; I look for an expression. I also collect phrases. For example, I like Freud’s, “From error to error one discovers the entire truth.” Another one is by Beckett, "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." So the intention is always the same—to try to find something special and personal.


布尔戈塔｜Burgo Tower, 2007. Image © Fernando Guerra | FG+SG

VB：你说过，密斯对你产生了很大的影响。但是好像只有诸如波尔图的Torre do Burgo项目能够反映这一点，那么他的作品怎么吸引你了呢？

SM：他也许是一位矛盾的建筑师。他是说一套，做的又是另外一套。他设计了玻璃制品，但是却住在19世纪的新古典主义石头建筑之中。密斯说过，“美学是真理的镜子。”但是看看他的作品详图，这些图像却都是谎话。

VB: You mentioned that Mies is one of your main influences. But only a few of your projects, such as your Torre do Burgo here in Porto, hint at that. What is it that draws you to his work?
SM: He is perhaps the most contradictory architect. He said one thing but did something entirely different. He designed glass buildings but lived in a 19th-century stone neoclassical building. Mies said, “Beauty is the mirror of truth.” But look at his detail drawings. I have a whole collection of them here. All of those drawings are lies!  


维亚纳堡省文化中心｜Cultural Center of Viana do Castelo, 2013. Image © João Morgado

VB：（笑）它们看起来很好看。

SM：它们很神圣！（笑）

VB: [Laughs.] But they are so beautiful to look at.
SM: Oh, they are divine! [Laughs.]  


圣洛伦索巴洛卡酒店｜São Lourenço do Barrocal, 2016. Image © Nelson Garrido

VB：所以你认为这些复杂的层次细节并不必要。

SM：不，它们是必要的。建筑就是这样形成。这些美丽的细部也许布局功能性，同时也不真实，但是它们必不可少，这就如同化妆品一样。Nietzsche曾经说过，“艺术的存在是为了我们不因真理而死亡。”所有的表面都是假象。我想要在Torre do Burgo项目中展示这些想法，因为每个表象都在诉说着一个故事、一种理念。

VB: So you are saying that these complicated layered details are not necessary.
SM: Of course, they are necessary! That’s what makes architecture. These beautiful details may not be functional, they are not truthful, but they are so beautiful and therefore, essential. They are a sort of skin-deep make-up... As Nietzsche said, “We have art in order not to die of the truth.” All façades are fake. I tried to show that in my Torre do Burgo project. Every façade is a story, a point of view...


葡萄牙酒店及餐饮学校｜Hotel & Catering School, by Eduardo Souto de Moura and Graça Correia, 2011. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves


Auditorium A, by Eduardo Souto de Moura and Graça Correia, 2011. Image © Luís Ferreira Alves, Christian Richters


House in Maia 2, 2007. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves


威尼斯双年展馆｜Venice Biennale Pavilion, 2012. Image © Nico Saieh


Porto Metro, 2005. Image © Luis Ferreira Alves

作者简介：

VLADIMIR BELOGOLOVSKY是纽约非营利Curatorial项目的创始者，他在纽约库伯联盟学院学习建筑，并且著有9本著作，其中包括、《New York: Architectural Guide》（DOM，2019）、《Conversations with Architects in the Age of Celebrity》（DOM，2015）、《Harry Seidler: LIFEWORK 》（Rizzoli，2014）、《Soviet Modernism: 1955-1985》（TATLIN，2010）。另外还有许多大型展览，即2012年的世界巡回展览“Harry Seidle：绘画建筑”，2017至2018年的“Emilio Ambasz”、2016年起的“Sergei Tchoban”，还有2008年威尼斯建筑双年展俄罗斯展馆的“象棋游戏”。 Belogolovsky还是柏林建筑杂志“SPEECH”的美国记者，在2018年，他是北京清华大学的受邀学者，并且曾经在超过30个国家的高校和博物馆进行演讲。

Belogolovsky的专栏“City of Ideas”为ArchDaily的读者介绍了他也世界知名建筑师的对话，自2002年起，他采访过超过300位建筑师，而这些密切会谈也是2016年6月悉尼大学展览的主题内容，“City of Ideas”将会在世界各地举办巡回展览，从而不断地探索设计与理念。

VLADIMIR BELOGOLOVSKY is the founder of the New York-based non-profit Curatorial Project. Trained as an architect at Cooper Union in New York, he has written five books, including Conversations with Architects in the Age of Celebrity (DOM, 2015), Harry Seidler: LIFEWORK (Rizzoli, 2014), and Soviet Modernism: 1955-1985 (TATLIN, 2010). Among his numerous exhibitions: Anthony Ames: Object-Type Landscapes at Casa Curutchet, La Plata, Argentina (2015); Colombia: Transformed (American Tour, 2013-15); Harry Seidler: Painting Toward Architecture (world tour since 2012); and Chess Game for Russian Pavilion at the 11th Venice Architecture Biennale (2008). Belogolovsky is the American correspondent for Berlin-based architectural journal SPEECH and he has lectured at universities and museums in more than 20 countries.
Belogolovsky’s column, City of Ideas, introduces ArchDaily’s readers to his latest and ongoing conversations with the most innovative architects from around the world. These intimate discussions are a part of the curator’s upcoming exhibition with the same title which premiered at the University of Sydney in June 2016. The City of Ideas exhibition will travel to venues around the world to explore ever-evolving content and design.