帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger

Changing Metaphors: an Interview between Ory Dessau and ZviHecker

由专筑网李韧，王雪纯编译

著名建筑师与艺术家ZviHecker出生于1931年，在2017年6月至7月，他在柏林GalerieNordenhake举办了一场名为“Crusaders Come and Go”的展览。在展览的第一部分，Hecker介绍了建筑现代主义转型的历史意义以及对于城市规划的影响。他指出了城市化策略和专注于单体建筑的影响。在第二部分，Hecker研究了建筑师的风格概念，以及与其作品理念相反的定位与特征。在最后一部分，Hecker仔细地说明了作品中不断出现的主题，该主题是他的作品的象征、概念，以及动态参考。

The conversation with renowned architect and artist ZviHecker (born 1931) followed Crusaders Come and Go, his exhibition at GalerieNordenhake, Berlin (June-July 2017). In the first part, Hecker introduces his historical critique of the Modernist turn in architecture and its effect on city planning. He points out the tension between an urbanistic approach and approach which focuses on the impact of the single building. In the second part, Hecker tackles the notion of the architect’s style and positions his work against or in distance to the endeavor of cultivating a stylistic signature. In the last part, Hecker elaborates on a recurring motif in his work, the motive of the open book as a symbol, concept and formal dynamic reference.


杜伊斯堡犹太文化中心｜The Jewish Cultural Centre, Duisburg, 1996-2000, Duisburg, Germany. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger

Ory Dessau：您的展览从最具争议的说法“现代主义建筑——城市化”这一概念开始展开了讨论。

ZVIhecker：是的。我们现在的做法有些消极，很大程度来说，这是受柯布西耶的影响。他的作品风靡于20世纪，其中不仅建筑，还有城市主义。

可以想象，如果柯布西耶仍然在瑞士，那么他也会像大多数瑞士建筑师那样，在一座小花园中设计一座小房子。
   
后来他搬到巴黎，他发现自己的才能能够服务于更大规模，其实这就是在一座大花园中设计建筑，他们称之为“城市主义”。

这一思想是与过去分隔的见证，并且与20世纪初欧洲政治计划和社会学拥有共鸣，首先是意大利的法西斯主义，再后来是德国的纳粹、俄罗斯共产主义，亦或是巴勒斯坦犹太主义。无论心理还是个体，几乎所有人都希望对“智人”这个物种进行提升与改造。距离来说，未来主义者认为，意大利面会让人变笨，因此人们应该少吃意大利面，抑或是在巴勒斯坦上世纪30年代的海报上，理想中的犹太人成为了高大、金发碧眼的斯堪的纳维亚人。

没什么可隐瞒的是，人类的发展已经有了很大的进步，因此人类也不可能继续生活在黑暗的老建筑当中，当然也不会再无畏地接受他人的改造。当今人类应该居住在自由美好的空间之中。

Ory Dessau: We begin this discussion with one of the most problematic products of Modern Architecture – Urbanism.
ZviHecker: Exactly. Our inheritance is a rather negative one, in no small degree due to the influence of Le Corbusier. His work has justifiably dominated the architecture of the twentieth century.  What is less understandable is his influence on Urbanism of the last century.
One can imagine that if Le Corbusier had remained in Switzerland, he would have, like most Swiss architects, ended up designing small houses in small gardens.
Moving to Paris, the capital of Europe at those times, he decided that his talent required a larger scale, and proposed large houses in large gardens, and called it Urbanism.
Embraced as evidence of progress and a break with the past, this idea resonated with political programs and social doctrines spreading across Europe at the turn of Twentieth Century: first by the Fascists in Italy, then by the Nazis in Germany, the Communists in Russia, and even by the Zionists in Palestine. All were eager to improve the “impure” homo sapiens, just as much psychologically as physically. Marinetti and the Futurists, for example, claimed that pasta made Italians stupid and its consumption should be limited; in Palestine, on posters of the 1930s, the ideal Jew could be mistaken for a tall Scandinavian, blond and blue-eyed.
Greatly improved and having nothing to hide, the new human, of course, couldn’t continue to dwell in the dark backstreets of ancient architecture, in conditions not only unsanitary but also inaccessible to those who see themselves guardians of the improved human race.  The new human should be put on display, in glass houses, in praise and glory of the new regimes.


杜伊斯堡犹太文化中心｜The Jewish Cultural Centre, Duisburg, 1996-2000, Duisburg, Germany. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger

OD：柯布西耶的设计理念引起了许多年轻建筑师的共鸣，因此触发了当时的建筑革命。

ZH：是的，在二十世纪的革命环境中，柯布西耶和笛卡尔的概念与当时的政治运动目标一致。摩天大楼和大型建筑通过开放空间和高速公路相互分隔，让人们彼此远离，但是政治人员又很容易彼此接近。

柯布西耶的概念也受到了很多建筑事务所的认可，这些事务所的活动、盈利与标准化建筑规模成一定的比例。建筑与周边环境分隔开之后，就不需要去考虑现有建筑的适应性，这对于投资者来说十分具有吸引力。

当思想和政治的结合再加上经济因素时，其力量会变得空前巨大。

这就是这些冷漠的住宅的形成过程，随着时间的推移，这里甚至有可能变成犯罪场所。
   
其实，柯布西耶本人并没有真正意义上地实现自己的城市规划概念，因此，后人将他的策略应用于实际规划项目中，这有些不太适合。

OD: It seems that Le Corbusier’s proposal resonated with the young architects, carried on the waves of revolutionary enthusiasm.
ZH: True. In the revolutionary environment of the emerging twentieth century, Le Corbusier’s doctrine and its Cartesian coherence conformed ideally with the aims and rigorousness of the dominant political movements of the time. Skyscrapers and large building blocks separated from one another by large open spaces and highways, left the inhabitants detached but easily accessible by the authorities.
Le Corbusier’s concept was embraced also by construction companies, whose activity and profits were proportional to the size of standardized buildings. Buildings separated from their neighborhood and from other buildings, with no need to consider or adapt to the quality of existing architecture, were extremely attractive for the investors.
This union of the ideological and financial, combined with the prospect of huge profits, was unrivaled.
That is how indifferent housing came into being and even evolved in time into places of criminal activity.
However, Le Corbusier himself was never given the proper chance to realize his city planning ideas and, to be fair, is blamed for the sins of his imitators.


德国柏林“山”住宅｜The “Mountains” Housing Project, Berlin, Germany, 1993-2006. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect

OD：那么当时有考虑过其他城市主义概念吗？

ZH：首先我要指出我们继承了许多20世纪早期建筑大师的设计概念与作品。当时没有任何先例可以借鉴，因此他们的实践范围从巴塞罗那扩大到伦敦等欧洲城市，融合了新技术，其中包括污水治理、天然气、道路照明、电力电话体系、机械运输等革命性新系统。这些设计的完成基于一定的专业化，因此城市同样能够服务于数百万居民与游客。

另一方面，20世纪的建筑师的任务相对容易完成，当时有着先进的技术与生产方式，前五十年并没有这些优势。在欧洲，Tony Garnier 的CitéIndustrielle规划、August Perret的Le Havre的重建项目、阿尔托的赫尔辛基中心的设计方案十分突出，但是我们也不能忘记斯洛文尼亚共和国首都卢布尔雅那的JožePlečnik，在城市规划中复兴了传统。

90年代，在柏林自由区项目中，Lebbeus Woods建议通过“自由区”体系和未知空间来统一柏林的两个地区。
   
就小规模而言，1961年以色列Bat-Yam中心的规划项目有着罗马时期庞贝古城的广场形式。

显而易见的是，20世纪的建筑师对于当时的一些任务没有过多的准备，也没有接触到城市主义及前年传统的学习。这门学科在当时没有列入相关的教学计划，当时比较风靡的是社会住房规划研究。

在20世纪，汽车、高速公路、电梯改变了生活模式，扩大了19世纪的城市边界。著名的包豪斯建筑学院的魏玛与德绍校区，在教授城市主义相关知识时也并不成功。但是这个专业对于公共事业却至关重要，最后只能掌握在政府人员手中。

OD: Were there at that time other ideas considering Urbanism?
ZH: First let me point out that we also inherited great work from the architects of the early twentieth century. Without any preceding examples to draw from, they enlarged and modernized European cities from Barcelona to London, incorporating waves of new inventions and technology, like sewage, gas, street lighting, electricity, the telephone, mechanical transport -- all revolutionary new systems. Because this was done with such planning and professionalism, these cities still function well for the benefit of their inhabitants and for millions of tourists.
On the other hand, the early twentieth century architects had a much easier task of it because, despite advances in technology and the refinement production methods, the twentieth century had witnessed no innovation that matched those of the previous fifty years.  In Europe, only Tony Garnier in his CitéIndustrielle plan, August Perret in the reconstruction of Le Havre, Alvar Alto in his beautiful design for the center of Helsinki, and let’s not forget JožePlečnik in Ljubljana, continued and re-vitalized the city planning tradition.
In the nineties, in his Free-Zone-Berlin project, Lebbeus Woods proposed unifying the two parts of Berlin through a system of “free zones” and spaces for use of still unknown purpose.
On a smaller scale, our plan for the Center of Bat-Yam in Israel, in 1961, took its civic form from the Forum of Pompeii during Roman times.
It is evident that the architects of the twentieth century were unprepared for the task they faced, not exposed to the study of Urbanism, and its thousand-year tradition. This subject was excluded from the teaching programs of the schools of architecture, replaced by the study of planning of social housing.
In the twentieth century, cars, highways, and elevators made it possible to change modes of living significantly, by expanding the ninetieth-century boundaries of the cities. The most renowned school of architecture, Bauhaus — first in Weimar than in Dessau — was not very successful in endowing architects with the knowledge of Urbanism.  This profession, so crucial for the public good, was left in the hands of bureaucrats.


勃兰登堡门新广场｜New Square for the Brandenburg Gate, Berlin, Germany, 2010. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


勃兰登堡门新广场｜New Square for the Brandenburg Gate, Berlin, Germany, 2010. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


勃兰登堡门新广场｜New Square for the Brandenburg Gate, Berlin, Germany, 2010. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect

OD：你是否认为现在的建筑师、城市规划者们能更熟练地掌握城市规划？

ZH：我不确定能不能说是真正的变化，因为公共利益和我们想要保护并传递给下一代的东西，是政府人员们不需要承担的负担。清新的空气、水资源、绿化、交通设施、公园本来就是城市的一部分，但是柏林好像是个例外。

OD: Do you think that city planning is now in more professional hands?
ZH: I do not know if one can speak about a real change, as the public good and our responsibility to preserve and hand over to the next generation what we have inherited is considered an unnecessary burden for bureaucrats. Clean air, clean water, greenery, good transport, free access to parks should have been the integral component for the well-being of city residents, but actually, from this point of view, Berlin is one of the exceptions.


德国柏林“山”住宅｜The “Mountains” Housing Project, Berlin, Germany, 1993-2006. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect

OD：你在柏林工作与生活，你的生活发生了很多变化，那这里是否有一些始终不变的东西呢？

ZH：举个例子，在我的工作中，比较容易注意到的是缺失的元素，比如独立建筑，人能够自由走动的建筑。

我在柏林的学校并没有真正的边界，即使内外类似，你也可以直接进去。我的建筑类似于中世纪城市，有着很长的墙壁、封闭的广场、院落，这能带来安全感。

我认为，一种尚未成形的新意识正在逐步构成，这种意识与中世纪密切相关。我认为我与中世纪的关系相较于文艺复兴更加密切一些，毕竟我出生在中世纪的Kraków，在中世纪的Samarkand长大，然后在Negev沙漠设计了一座中世纪建筑，就此开始了我的职业生涯。
   
人们会更加倾向于建造承受能力强的建筑。因此你也会开始考虑，你的生活是否成为了你的工作的一部分。

OD：在沙利文之后，建筑师们会想要表达建筑的功能重要作用。看到今天的一些规划，似乎可以说明，这一主题失去了一些真实性，那么，功能对你来说意味着什么呢？

ZH：对我来说，功能主义的理论是对20世纪建筑思维的巨大贡献，其中包括理性主义、经济，以及建筑理念，但是这并不是形式与风格的特点。你可以认为，建筑的功能与厨师做菜的安全性同样重要，因为这既不是形式，也不是某种味道。关于健康、关于功能，这两个关注点表达了人们对20世纪的关注。

OD：你能够分享一些作为激进建筑师的观点吗？

ZH：我无法谈论我自己，因为我也会质疑激进主义的意义，我认为这是对于某个象征的追求。它成为了商业化过程，一些很久之前就出现的原型东西，他们会认为这是原创。我希望我的作品能够延续建筑的传统工艺，不仅仅是形式意义，而是对于人类需求的呼应。如果要说某种基本元素，那这就是我对于这种需求的理解。

OD: Mentioning Berlin, where you live and work, one wonders if there are some constant elements in your work despite many changes in your activity?
ZH: It would be easier to note the absence of some elements in my work, for instance, the absence of freestanding buildings. Buildings that one walk around, and wonder about.
There is no real elevation to look at in my school in Berlin. You have to enter inside, even if the inside is still outside. My buildings often resemble a Medieval city, its maximally elongated walls, enclosed piazzas, cul-de-sacs, and courtyards, that provide a sense of security.
In my opinion, a new awareness, not fully formed yet, is developing, related to the concerns of the Middle Ages (hopefully excluding its monastic orders). I feel more related to the Middle Ages than to the Renaissance; after all, I was born in Medieval Kraków, raised in Medieval Samarkand and started my career building a kind of Medieval KaravanSarai in the Negev Desert.
Uprooted more than once, one is inclined to build a world to withstand destruction. And then you have to wonder if your life offers a clue to the understanding of your work.

OD: Since Louis Sullivan, architects have tried to express themselves about the importance of function in architecture. Looking at some of today’s plans, it seems that this subject has lost some verity. What does function mean for you?
ZH: For me, the theory of functionalism is the contribution to the architectural thinking of the twentieth century. It includes rationalism, economy and the architectural idea, although it’s not a prescription for form and style. You can say that function for architecture is as important as health for high cuisine: it does not provide either form or taste. Both concerns, about good health and about the good functioning of our buildings, reflect our twentieth-century preoccupations.

OD: Do you share the opinion of those that consider you a radical architect?
ZH: I can’t say that about myself, particularly, as I question the significance of the radicalism -- I see it mostly as a frantic pursuit of an icon. It becomes a very commercial venture, claiming originality while using old prototypes that were exploited a long time ago. I hope my work continues the tradition of workmanship in architecture, not in a formal sense but as a credible response to human needs. If there is an element of a basic outlook, it comes only from my personal interpretation of those needs.


Neumeister House, Monte Fumo, Itri, Latina, Italy, 2017-2018. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect

OD：这是对建筑角色的个人解释，并且表达自己的独特想法是吗？

ZH：我并不认为我在工作中是在寻求真正的声音。这其实都是个虚假的说法。对于不同项目中的不同身份我十分满意。但是，我也没有否定项目中所存在的相似性。

OD: Is this personal interpretation of the role of architecture, an attempt to formulate your distinctive voice?
ZH: I don’t think that I am looking for an authentic voice in my work. It will be spurious anyhow.  I’m satisfied with the identity of each of my different projects. I’m not negating, however, a kind of consequent likeness in some of my work.


Neumeister House, Monte Fumo, Itri, Latina, Italy, 2017-2018. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect

OD：众所周知的是，你的大部分项目都涉及隐喻，有时甚至不止一个，那么隐喻有什么作用呢？

ZH：在设计的早期，隐喻是隐藏起来的，但是它们贯穿整个设计过程。隐喻让我更了解建筑理念的内在核心，柏林Heinz Galinski学院的规划项目就是这个情况。在起初，向日葵的隐喻就表达了知识的传播与吸收，这是教育的本质，随着时间的流逝，“打开书本”的隐喻则更加清晰地表达了学院的形式。

我相信，建筑概念的发展能够与孩子们个性的发展与成长相对比。从孩童变为成年人，我们的关注不可或缺，我们不知道的是孩子长大以后会是什么样。

OD: It is well known that most of your projects are related to a metaphor, sometimes, more than one. What function does metaphor play?
ZH: In the early stages of design, metaphors are well hidden, but they might appear in the long process of design. Metaphors allow me to come closer to the core meaning of the architectural idea. This was the case in the planning of Heinz Galinski School in Berlin. From the start, the metaphor of the sunflower embodied the idea of transmission and absorption of knowledge, which is, after all, what education is all about. But in time, the metaphor of the “Pages of the Open Book” took over to more clearly personify the form of the school.
I believe the development of an architectural idea is comparable to the growth and development of a child’s personality. For the child to grow, our care is indispensable, but we ultimately don’t know what the child will be like when they grow up.


杜伊斯堡犹太文化中心｜The Jewish Cultural Centre, Duisburg, 1996-2000, Duisburg, Germany. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


杜伊斯堡犹太文化中心｜The Jewish Cultural Centre, Duisburg, 1996-2000, Duisburg, Germany. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger

OD：通过建筑草图的形式，你想要靠近建筑概念的本质和不断变化的隐喻的象征是吗？

ZH：是的，我同意这个说法。在每个新项目的初始，我们都会找到其中的基本概念，我们没有在一开始就明确它，而是在每个项目中去逐步的发现它。只有它层层浮出水面，我们才能最终接受。我们也不知道概念与想法藏于何处，它没有明确的定位。这其实不太好，因为为了达到这样的目的，我们必须不断地寻找，就好像要达到一个目的地，我们要自己寻找合适的车辆，建筑草图就是这辆车，而隐喻便是燃料。

OD：感谢你对隐喻的阐释。

OD: It seems that through architectural sketches, you try to come close to the essence of the architectural idea and the symbolism of changing metaphors.
ZH: Yes, I agree with this definition, in every new project one is in search of its basic idea, which we do not bring to the project, but hope to discover within it. We embrace the idea only when it is ready to inform us about its nature. We do not know where the idea is hiding, its location does not appear on any map, and therefore cannot be reached by any public transport. It’s a disadvantage because, in order to reach such an unknown destination, we have to build our own means of transport. For me, architectural sketches are such a vehicle, and the metaphor is the vehicle’s fuel.

OD: Thank you for the additional metaphor.


杜伊斯堡犹太文化中心｜The Jewish Cultural Centre, Duisburg, 1996-2000, Duisburg, Germany. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger


杜伊斯堡犹太文化中心｜The Jewish Cultural Centre, Duisburg, 1996-2000, Duisburg, Germany. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger


阿姆斯特丹史基浦机场｜Koningin Máximakazerne, Schiphol Amsterdam Airport, Netherlands, 2001-2017. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Oliver Scheffler


阿姆斯特丹史基浦机场｜Koningin Máximakazerne, Schiphol Amsterdam Airport, Netherlands, 2001-2017. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Oliver Scheffler


阿姆斯特丹史基浦机场｜Koningin Máximakazerne, Schiphol Amsterdam Airport, Netherlands, 2001-2017. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Oliver Scheffler


帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger


帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Oliver Scheffler


帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger
        

帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger


帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger


帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger


帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Michael Krüger


帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


帕拉玛赫博物馆｜Palmach Museum of History, Tel Aviv, Israel, 1993- 1997. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


德国柏林“山”住宅｜The “Mountains” Housing Project, Berlin, Germany, 1993-2006. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


德国柏林“山”住宅｜The “Mountains” Housing Project, Berlin, Germany, 1993-2006. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


德国柏林“山”住宅｜The “Mountains” Housing Project, Berlin, Germany, 1993-2006. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


德国柏林“山”住宅｜The “Mountains” Housing Project, Berlin, Germany, 1993-2006. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


©2018, Kabinet architektury; photo: Daniel Alka, DANALKA.com. Image Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


Koningin Máximakazerne, Schiphol Amsterdam Airport, Netherlands, 2001-2017. Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect. Image © Oliver Scheffler


Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect


Courtesy of Zvi Hecker Architect